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Author Topic: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves  (Read 5815 times)

Offline PhillyT

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Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« on: April 10, 2010, 09:17:57 PM »
This is the draft thread for the W-E Tactica against Dark Elves.  Bies and Dagonaki are working on it.  If you have comments for the things posted here, go ahead.  Any help will be appreciated.

Phil
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 04:24:40 PM »
OK this is the first part of what I plan on doing. In this I've gone briefly through a few of the nastier Dark elf units and characters- I plan on expanding on these descriptions. However my next step will be more empire centric and aim at explaining what in my opinion works against Delves best (outriders, lots and lots of outriders)

Warhammer – Empire Anti Dark Elves Tactica

Overview:

Dark Elves are currently a member of the “big 3” and widely considered to be a broken, under-costed and overpowered list. While all of this is true there is 1 large weakness inherent with all of the Dark Elf units. They’re all T3 and they’ve got little armour which means they’re vulnerable to counter attacks.

What I’m aiming to do with this tactica is pour out all of my knowledge of Dark Elves and my experience in playing with and against them into a digital communication written form for your viewing pleasure. Afterwards I’ll then mention specific tactics and Empire units I think give us the best chance against this army.

I’m not going to talk about Dark elf units per se at the moment, maybe when I get the time or if it’s deemed necessary. What I will show is a list of items/ abilities/units/combinations that can pose a threat to both the Empire (and are just dark elf strengths in general).

1. Black Guard – Stubborn 9, immune to psychology, 2 attacks at str4 each. You give this unit the Standard of Hag Graef and they have Always Strike First as well. PLUS their unit champion (Tower Master) can take a magic item.

From my knowledge and experience a Tower Master is given usually one of the following: A) Null Talisman giving the unit MR1, B) Crimson Death so that he has 3 Str6 attacks which cannot be modified in any way C) Ring of Hotek – more on this later.

This is a nasty and scary unit especially considering they’re quite affordable. Personally I take a unit of 14 of these guys 7 wide, many however take them 15 or so 5 wide – to be honest 5x3 is better for the empire as it means 4 less attacks a turn and a deeper unit for our artillery. The key issue with these guys is while they have lots of attacks and will rarely break when they come up against high toughness or low armour save (1+, 2+)  they struggle to get many kills and without any Static CR it becomes possible to win combats.

Plus the die to shooting ridiculously easy, however for some reason they’re never a high priority target…go figure.

2. Dragon Lord – this is a nasty, nasty character and the great selection of weapons and talismans means he can be a REAL pain in the arse. Now there are many possible combinations but as a Delf player these are the best 2 in my opinion (having played both I do have a personal favourite) these combinations are: A) Hydra blade - +d3 attacks each round of combat, Potion of Strength – str 7 for 1 round of combat, Pendant of Kaleth – reverse ward save. B) Caledor’s Bane – lance +3 str, instead of +2, no scaly skin save, Potion of Strength, Pendant of Kaleth. Both of these are nasty combinations to  face as with all armour options they have a 2+AS against shooting, 3+ in combat + ward and dish out a lot of str7 attacks (with Hydra blade up to 7 attacks). Variations include giving the rider Ring of Hotek or Armour of Eternal servitude (heavy armour with Regeneration – giving the character a 2/3+ AS 4+ regen and ward save). However I personally believe such combinations either diminish the combat potential or take up unnecessary points. Best thing about this guy is you take out that Dragon of his (Obligatory 2 cannons, Orb of Thunder to help) and he’s out on his own and quite possibly with a useless lance – to which you should be able to run him over with almost anything.

3. Dark Riders – 18” charge, str4 with lances these guys can seriously hurt our smaller units and they have the range to pretty much leave us with no options to stop them. Not to mention a unit of 5 or 6 with musician only comes to 100-120pts so they’re quite cheap. That said they’re T3 with a 5+AS so can be shotdown quit quickly and readily.

4. Repeater crossbowmen – 2xstr3 AP shots that can move and fire. These guys dish out a lot of firepower and again can hurt our smaller units like pistoliers, outriders, detachments, flagellants etc. They should be on your list to whittle down as soon as possible to minimize their effectiveness. Keep in mind if equipped with shields then these guys are essentially an Empire swordsmen (WS4, Str3, I5, 4+AS) with crossbow (for kicks you know)

5. Witchelves & Corsairs – these units are very similar and slightly different at the same time. Disregarding handbows both units rely on mass attacks to win combat. Corsairs have two hand weapons so 2 attacks each while Witch elves have two hand weapons + frenzy so 3 (with poison). The biggest issue with these units is that they’re str3 attacks. So even against our infantry they’ll only wound on around 50% of their hits (they should get around 75% of their attacks to hit with Hatred) so a regular 5 wide unit we’re looking at 7 hits and 3.5 wounds for corsairs and 13 hits and 6.5 wounds of witch elves.

Considering most of us take swordsmen that’s only 1.75 or 3.25 wounds suffered still not enough to break out Static combat res and we still get models to strike back – combine with a detachment in the flank and we’re laughing.

6. Couldron of Blood – this is an odd unit, personally I don’t like it, I think it’s helpful and can be useful but I don’t like taking a Death Hag. There are some combinations to be worried about however. #1 giving Killing Blow to either Witchelves or Blackguard, +1 attack to the above units or Executioners. Keep in mind the cauldron can’t be destroyed by shooting and it’s crew get a 4+ ward. That would make combat the option of choice against this beast however there are a few combat options that most players will give their death-hag. Manbane (strength counts as 1 more then your toughness to a max of str6, so you’re T3 the character counts as Str4) + rune of Khaine for +d3 attacks (so with 2 handweapons and frenzy we’re looking at 6-8 attacks with poison as well, PLUS the 2 handlers who have 4 attacks poison each. SO if you charge it best make sure you can kill them – often they make the hag a BSB as well, just to really rub things in – Oh and they’ll be stubborn 9 thanks to the Couldron.

7. Cold One knights- meh just shoot’em they’ll die soon enough, DO NOT let them hit your flanks though or they most likely will run up your battleline.

8. Hydra’s, under costed with 7 str5 attacks it’s a beast in combat and nasty with its breath weapon attack and has REGEN of all things. To be fair taking it out with shooting is a bit of a 50/50 chance, 1 thing to keep in mind is that it does break from combat and it is only ld8. Your regular SCR5 block + detachment stands a pretty decent chance of winning combat thanks to your 6SCR. In fact my rough mathhammer has the hydra handlers doing 1.5 wounds and the Hydra doing 3-4 wounds. Which would have the infantry block winning combat. Also I’ve run a Hydra into the flank of a unit of Nilla Empire knights and lost before so scary but not infallible.
 

The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010, 06:58:14 AM »
You forgot Shades

repeater crossbows
great weapons
WS 5 BS 5
skirmishers, scouts

these guys are any generals wet dreams, versatile, hard hitting, extremely useful I would always use two units of 7 in every single dark elf army I field.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 08:28:29 AM »
yet to get to them.

The best unit in the entire delf book imo is a unit of 7 shades with GW and a Ninja assassin (rending stars + manbane) using 2 such units of my own atm.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2010, 08:31:55 AM »
If you can get the magic defenese to protect them against magic missiles you have one nasty unit.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2010, 08:46:40 AM »
nah see currently i use a unit of 5 nekkid- 80pts plus my 151pt assassin. so 230 isn't that much and he's able to take down Giants, chaos knights, chariots, it's awesome!

add another 2-3 units in and I got a really annoying list. But we shouldn't chitchat. 2nd installment should come tonight.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Siberius

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 04:37:19 PM »
I know it's nothing major, but I'm guessing you mean spears on the dark riders rather than lances.

Might possibly be worth mentioning the frenzy banner for the corsairs too. Which would start them down the road towards witch elves who won't die in droves.

Everything else you wrote seems goodly to me.
Quote from: PhillyT
Magic does not have nearly the same problems with power levels as magic. 

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 06:56:14 PM »
good or Godly?

I'll accept both.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Siberius

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 08:08:34 PM »
Hehe, sorry, goodly is one of my words. Good just sometimes seems too formal. Godly is sometimes a little too... much.... so goodly it is.  :wink:
Quote from: PhillyT
Magic does not have nearly the same problems with power levels as magic. 

Offline Aldaris

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 08:19:24 PM »
Don't Dark Riders also have repeater crossbows? And they're light cavalry, which should also be mentioned since this is one of their key strengths.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 01:33:33 AM »
Don't Dark Riders also have repeater crossbows? And they're light cavalry, which should also be mentioned since this is one of their key strengths.

They need to be upgraded to have RXBs at which point imo they become too expensive. I didn't get the chance last night to update, i'll see what I can do in the next day or so, thanks for all the hole fillers though I'll go through and revise what I've already written to include what you guys are saying.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Warlord

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 03:08:37 AM »
A good start.

Lots of work to go, but definitely great to get the ideas down.

The +1A from the cauldron on Black Guard is nasty.

Don't assume the Dark Riders are too expensive with RBX. I have seen them used to lethal affect (only 3 days ago) combined with a lot of other shooting and magic.

Frenzy banner on the Cold Ones Knights make them very dangerous.

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Offline Calisson

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 07:38:32 AM »
Being knowledgeable about both DE and Empire, I'll keep an eye on this thread and can give a hand.
DE antitactica against Empire is there:
D.R.A.I.C.H. - Strike the Empire.

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2010, 10:56:05 AM »
Calisson - Bies from the Delf forum here.


The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Siberius

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2010, 03:05:31 PM »
Isn't the frenzy banner Corsairs only? I'll have to go check...

And yes, sometimes crossbows on the dark riders is the way to go. Makes them doubly versatile and gives them a huge edge in the flanking battles with pistoliers etc.
Quote from: PhillyT
Magic does not have nearly the same problems with power levels as magic. 

Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 05:59:59 PM »

it is Corsairs only, so whoever has been using it on Warlord is mistaken.

The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Calisson

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 08:49:40 PM »
Calisson - Bies from the Delf forum here.
Your arrival in D.net was not unnoticed!  :icon_smile:
I don't write much in here, but I read what's going on. I've seen several threads that you started in parallel in the two forums.


Back on topic.


Harpies.
In the useful units DE may bring in, you forgot to mention harpies.
55 pts for a unit of 5 flying little beasts, 2 attacks each, no armor.  And they are core!
They will destroy a warmachine in turn 2. Or they will screen a more expensive unit. Or they will march-block. Or they can suicide-charge a unit sheltering a magic-user.
Quite vulnerable with no armor, but they won't panic any other unit if they are destroyed.




DE armies.
DE can be seen in many different mixes of Melee, Agility and Influence.
DE have access to:
- a very reliable mass melee, albeit fragile,
boosted by an exceptional variety and quantity (including assassins) of melee characters, albeit expensive;
- to the best ability to control time and space, although either expensive (monsters) or fragile;
- to a very reliable shooting although not that powerful,
and a very aggressive albeit risky magic offence
and a commendable magic defense.

DE can select any aspect and excel in it, or mix two aspects and get outstanding results, or can combine all aspects and still thrive in that, too. However, if DE can dominate one or more of any area of the game, their high costs means that they can't do it all.
As a consequence, you cannot tell beforehand to which style the DE army you'll face will belong.

Seven different mixes :

Melee mostly.
Styles: Horde of warriors with few characters. Khainite or other theme army. Mixed infantry. Heavy cavalry. Single über-unit.
Description: Infantry units complementing each other, each made for a specific goal, some useful against specific foes, with the adaptability of assassins and COB (Cauldron of Blood). Or several similar units. Or a larger, main unit, with characters. Always rushing for melee.
Drawbacks: Must get quickly in melee in order to become immune to shooting and to most magic. Should be wary of side-charges by enveloping foes, which it has naturally little ways to avoid, especially if glued into a tar pit.

Agility mostly.
Styles: WAAC (Win At All Costs). Monster mash. Chariot army.
Description: Elusive army, ultra-maneuverable, terror/fear causing.
Drawbacks: Very, very few units. If tar pitted, will loose quickly to SCR (Static Combat Resolution).
-
Style: Elusive army.
Description: Catch me if you can! Kill only small vulnerable units, avoid everything else.
Drawbacks: Usually not a winning tactics.
-
Styles: MSU (Many Small Units). Assassin army. COB heavy army. Burger Khaine (2 Executioners + 1 COB).
Description: The maneuver aspect is predominant, whatever the foe.
Drawbacks: Overcoming large units may prove difficult. If too many characters are there, the army lacks bodies.

Melee & Agility.
Style: Balanced melee army.
Description: Probably some of the most powerful armies belong to there. Little to no shooting, only defensive magic, but there is a combination of mobile units and hard hitters. For tacticians.
Drawbacks: Different speeds in the army induce successive waves. Not easy to get rid of light annoying troops at distance.

Melee, Agility and Influence.
Style: Balanced army.
Description: The intent of magic & shooting is to get rid of the opponent's light troops so that you can dictate the maneuver with agile troops and hit with melee troops. The maneuver aspect is important here, but more important is the adaptability. Less powerful but more adaptable than balanced armies without magic & shooting. The goal is to use the most astute tactics to win, rather than with share power.
Drawbacks: Although the army has many different tricks available, they are not pronounced and may all be countered. The army must adapt differently to each opponent and find it’s weak point.

Melee & Influence.
Styles: Defensive, or static army. The Shade Death Star also belongs to here (an über unit of 40 Shades with characters providing magic defense & ASF).
Description: Prepare for melee, considering it is inevitable, taking melee units & characters and not maxing magic/shooting. Here, the magic & shooting are supposed to weaken the foe's main units, sufficiently for melee units to receive the charge and finish them. The same tactics is used for any opponent, and there is no particular emphasis on maneuver.
Drawbacks: The opponent might bring a stronger shooting and get the best. Or a very fast opponent will get rid of the shooting and ignore the melee part.

Agility & Influence.
Styles: Guerrilla. Flying sorceresses (including Monster-riding).
Description: The idea is to avoid melee by running away, and kill mostly at distance whoever is vulnerable.
Drawbacks: Magic is fickle and mobile shooting is weak. Facing a strong mass, it won’t scratch it. Facing a static shooting army, it will get shot down.

Influence mostly.
Styles: Magigunline. Elusive Magic. Pure gunline. Multiple shade death starlets.
Description: Maxed for magic and/or shooting. Melee is considered an accident, for which you just get an insurance (Black Guard, for example).
Drawbacks: Quite helpless against fast armors such as most monsters and heavy cavalry. It’s a gamble. And, admittedly, it is a little bit boring for both opponents.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 09:17:21 PM by Calisson »

Offline Warlord

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 02:23:46 PM »

it is Corsairs only, so whoever has been using it on Warlord is mistaken.

Damn it!
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Offline Nicholas Bies

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 04:20:28 PM »

Hey

So this has been left alone for a very long time. Was wondering if anyone has made any progress or has anything they want to write about (i'm willing to restart writing this).

So far I've had mixed success with Empire and Delves (change to 8th was a huge shock to my system). I'm willing to put down what little i've come to realize works and what doesn't with dark elves although I've been out of touch with my empire for the last few months.
The greatest form of control which can go on forever until it is exposed is a tyranny you can't see, touch and taste (unlike totalitarian Govts). When you sit in a prison cell but can't see the bars, because people don't rebel against not being free when they think they're are.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2010, 09:57:58 PM »

So far I've had mixed success with Empire and Delves (change to 8th was a huge shock to my system). I'm willing to put down what little i've come to realize works and what doesn't with dark elves although I've been out of touch with my empire for the last few months.

Thats what some of our power gamers at my local club have said lately about 8th edition ::heretic:: :biggriin:.

Except the warriors of chaos guy. . . He is laughing all the way to the bank.

Damn him.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline Shade p38

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2012, 10:56:03 PM »
so i have a question how do we defeat Dark Elves or should i say what units to use against them.  Last time i played the dark elves my great swords did pretty good i haven't played the game as empire all that much and a generally play dark elves

Offline Shade p38

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 02:43:17 AM »
i meant against dark elves

Offline Calisson

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2012, 07:55:45 AM »
DE would hate to face the following from Empire:
- Warmachines of all kinds, even mortars, which kill easily the fragile elves;
- Magic Missiles cast by low cost Wizards will destroy the vital DE agile units, harpies, Dark Riders, Shades. Once they're gone, the DE general will have less control on movement;
- Knights will resist a long time, except against Executioners or Witch Elves/Corsairs blessed with the Cauldron's KB - or if the DE sorceress gets Metal, but they seldom do.
- Hydras will die to flaming shooting: a WP blessing arrow shots to stop regen, followed by cannons.

Offline Holy Hand Grenade

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Re: Tacticas for W-E: Dark Elves
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2012, 09:33:09 AM »
so i have a question how do we defeat Dark Elves or should i say what units to use against them.  Last time i played the dark elves my great swords did pretty good i haven't played the game as empire all that much and a generally play dark elves

Shade-  check out my Battle Report thread-  I have several successful battles chronicled in there.   :::cheers:::
If at first you don't succeed...you either don't have enough faith or you need to bring more explosives

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