Topic: Empire Army List

[Thrawn]

OK. At the very beginning I should apologize those that will be angry because of yet another post about 'how I see the army and etc bla bla bla'. I spent a lot of time thinking about it and read lots of post here and other forums. Probably many will think that this is plain rubbish and another wiseguy wants to rant about GW. To be fair and honest...yes I'm disappointed. And I can bet that there are some people who are also a little bit disappointed like myself. It's just that I believe that there isn't really a need to change a lot to make Our army well balanced, fun to play and to attractive to talk about but also competitive on tournaments. Mr McNeil didn't do a great job. He tried (I hope) but he failed in some very important issues. I firmly believe that it is Our duty to fix what can be fixed (80% of the book and the rules are good - OK...maybe more or less, I'm not very good at Maths, never was) and I don't think that there is at least one Empire player that doesn't love his army and wants it to be simply good (not overpowered, not nerved - well balanced). So...during the last weekend I started doing this list and I would be vary happy and appreciate any comments, critique, hints - anything that can make this a well balanced and enjoyable to play for Us and our opponents (cause I believe this are the most important factors - to have a great time). To create this list I used: Warhammer The Empire 6th ed, Warhammer The Empire 7th ed, Chronicles 2002, Chronicles 2004, White Dwarf 310 from October 2005, and a few ideas from Warhammer Dwarfs 7th ed and Warhammer Wood Elves 7th ed. I hope you will enjoy reading it as I was enjoying making it (to be honest I now have butterflies in my stomach...I'm afraid of the reaction so please do be gentle). It's the first part. There are to many letters so I had to cut it into 2 parts (please make any comments in the second topic)


Lords

Elector Count
points: the same
stats: the same

Equipment:
the same
Options:
Option for halberd for +6 pts everything else the same
Army organisation
Ancestral Heirloom. If an Elector Count is your General, one unit of State Troops (Halberdiers, Spearmen, and Swordsmen) can have a magic banner worth up to 50 pts.
Bodyguards. If an Elector Count joins a unit of Greatswords, the unit becomes Immune to Panic.

Templar Grand Master
points: the same
stats: the same

Mount:
Barded Warhorse
Equipment:
Hand weapon, full plate armour and either a lance and a shield or a great weapon or a cavalry hammer (+5 pts) if Templar Grand Master of the White Wolf
Special Rules:
Master of Battle
Options:
the same
Army organisation
the same

Arch Lector of Sigmar
points: the same
stats: the same

Equipment:
Warhammer (Hand weapon)
Special Rules:
the same
Options:
- May ride upon the War Altar of Sigmar (+150 pts) everything else the same
Army organisation
the same

High Priest of Ulric 0-1
points: 135
stats and everything else as in Chronicles 2004
Army organisation
Honour and Duty. If he joins a unit of Teutogen Guards, the unit becomes Immune to Panic.

Wizard Lord
points: the same
stats: the same

Magic:
the same
Equipment:
the same
Options:
the same

Heroes

Captain of the Empire
points: the same
stats: the same

Equipment:
the same
Options:
the same
Battle Standard Bearer: [...]

Seneschal of the White Wolf
points: 65
stats and everything else as in Chronicles 2004

Warrior Priest of Sigmar
points: the same
stats: the same

Equipment:
the same
Special Rules:
the same
Options:
the same
Army organisation
the same

Warrior Priest of Ulric
points: WPoS
stats and everything else as in Chronicles 2004

Battle Wizard
points: the same
stats: the same

Magic:
the same
Equipment:
the same
Options:
the same

Master Engineer
points: the same
Mv Ws Bs St To Wo In At Ld
 4    3   5  3   3   2  3  1   7

Equipment:
the same
Special Rules:
the same
Options:
No robohorse (sorry Robocop fans)


Core

Halberdiers
points/model: the same               
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same + Empire Halberd (Armour Piercing).
Options:
- Any unit may be equipped with shields for +1 pt/per model
- Any unit may be equipped with heavy armour for +1 pt/per model
 

Spearmen
points/model: the same               
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same + Empire Spear (fight in 3 ranks).
Options:
the same


Swordsmen
points/model: the same               
stats: the same
 
Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same


Knightly Orders
points/model: the same                
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Mount: the same
Equipment: Hand weapon, full plate armour. Knight may be armed with either a lance and a shield, or great weapon or cavalry hammer (only White Wolf)
Special rules: Legendary Orders.
Options:
the same

Handgunners
points/model: the same               
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same + First Volley.

Crossbowmen
points/model: the same             
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same

Archers
points/model: the same               
stats: the same

Unit size: 5-20
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same
Options:
the same

Huntsmen 0-1
points/model: the same                
stats: the same
Unit size: 5-20
Equipment: Long bow, hand weapon.
Special rules: the same
Options:
the same

Free company
points/model: the same             
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same

Special

Greatswords 0-1
points/model: the same                
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: Stubborn, Bodyguards, State Troops.
Options:
- A standard bearer may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50 points.

Teutogen Guards 0-1
points and stats: as GS

Unit size: the same as GS
Equipment: as in Chronicles 2004
Special rules: Stubborn, Honour and Duty.
Options: 
as in Chronicles 2004

Reiksguard on Foot 0-1
points and stats as GS

Unit size:the same as GS
Equipment: Hand weapon, full plate armour and shield.
Special rules: Stubborn (only in the first round of combat).
Options:
- A standard bearer may carry a Magic Standard worth up to 50 points.

Knights of the Inner Circle
points/model: the same                
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Mount: the same
Equipment: Hand weapon, full plate armour. Knight may be armed with either a lance and a shield, or great weapon or cavalry hammer (only White Wolf)
Special rules: Legendary Orders.
Options: 
the same

Pistoliers
points/model: the same                
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Mount: the same
Equipment: the same
Special Rules: as in Empire AB 6th ed
Options:
the same

Outriders
points/model: the same                
stats: the same

Unit size: the same
Mount: the same
Equipment: the same
Special Rules: the same
Options:
the same

Great Cannon
points/model: the same                
                             M Ws Bs S T W I A  Ld
Engineer                  4   3   4  3  3 1 3 1  7

Number of crew: the same
Equipment: the same
- You can add Engineer to a Great Cannon crew for 10 pts.
- Engineer may carry one of the following weapons: brace of pistols (+5 pts) handgun (+5 pts)
Special Rules:
Engineer – Champion; Artillery Specialist: Cannon and Mortar can re-roll result on Misfire chart; Extra crewman.

Mortar
points/model: the same                
                          M Ws Bs S  T W  I  A Ld
Engineer               4  3   4  3  3  1   3  1  7

Number of crew: the same
Equipment: the same
- You can add Engineer to a Mortar crew for 10 pts.
- Engineer may carry one of the following weapons: brace of pistols (+5 pts) handgun (+5 pts)
Special Rules:
Engineer – Champion; Artillery Specialist: Cannon and Mortar can re-roll result on Misfire chart; Extra crewman.

[Thrawn]

Rare

Flagellant Warband
points/model: the same               
stats: To value 4

Unit size: the same
Equipment: the same
Special rules: the same 

Helblaster Volley Gun
points/model: 150               
stats: the same

Number of crew: the same
Equipment: the same
 
Helstorm Rocket Battery
points/model: the same                 
stats: the same

Number of crew: the same
Equipment: the same

Steam Tank
points/model: the same                 
stats: the same

Unit Size: the same
Armour Save: the same
Equipment: the same
Options:
Main cannon may be exchanged to volley gun for 50 points.
Main cannon may be exchanged to mortar for 25 points (note that you must reduce the number of W to 8 in total)
You may add a fighting platform for 50 points.
Volley Gun works as normal volley gun with the following exceptions:
It has got a range of 18”. Hits from the gun are Strength 4, -2 save, needs 2 steam points to shoot (once during a turn).
If you roll misfire the Steam Tank suffers D3 wounds.
Mortar and fighting platform work the same way as described in Annual 2002 and Chronicles 2004 with the following exceptions: you need 1 steam point to fire the mortar (once during a turn) If you roll a misfire the ST suffers D2 wounds.
Special Rules: the same
Army organisation: You may only include one Empire Steam Tank for every full 2,000 points in your army.

Wolf-kin
points/model: as in the Chronicles 2004            
stats: as in the Chronicles 2004

Unit size: as in the Chronicles 2004
Equipment: as in the Chronicles 2004
Special rules: as in the Chronicles 2004
Options:
-as in the Chronicles 2004

ARMY SPECIAL RULES

State Troops – as in the NEB.
Militia – as in the NEB.
Skirmishers – as in the Warhammer rulebook.
Scouts - as in the Warhammer rulebook.
Master of Battle – as in the NEB
Fast Cavalry – as in the Warhammer rulebook.
Fusillade – as in the Empire AB 6th ed
Stubborn – as in the Warhammer rulebook.
Master of Ballistics – as in the Empire AB 6th ed
Extra Crewman – as in the NEB
Blessing of Sigmar – as in the NEB
Righteous Fury – as in the NEB
Prayer of Sigmar – as in the NEB
Blessing of Ulric - as in the Chronicles 2004
Crush the Weak - as in the Chronicles 2004
Prayers of Ulric - as in the Chronicles 2004 These are as follows:
Battle Howl – as in the Chronicles 2004
Destruction – as in the Chronicles 2004
Winter’s Chill –as in the Chronicles 2004
Fury of Ulric – as in the Chronicles 2004
Commanding Presence – as in the Chronicles 2004
Unbreakable – as described in the Warhammer rulebook.
Crazed! – as in the NEB
The End is Nigh! – as in the NEB
Artillery Specialist – cannon and mortar can re-roll result on Misfire chart.
First volley – as in the Empire AB 6th ed
Empire halberd – such is the proficiency of Imperial soldiers tan they can inflict powerful blows to their enemies.
Empire spear – such is the proficiency of Imperial soldiers than they can fight with the spear in three ranks.
Legendary Orders – as in WD 310 October 2005 The advantages are as follows (point cost is made by me and there are some changes in the rules):
Blessed – as in WD 310 October 2005 (note that this not affect the model’s mount). (+12pts/model)
Zeal – as in WD 310 October 2005 (+8pts/model)
Exemplars – as in WD 310 October 2005 (+12pts/model)
Resolute – as in WD 310 October 2005 (+6pts/model)
Fearless – immune to fear. (+10pts/model)

EMPIRE ARMOURY

Full plate armour – as in the NEB
White Wolf hammer (cavalry hammer) – as in the Chronicles 2004
Empire handgun – as in the NEB
Hochland long rifle – as in the NEB
Repeater handgun – as in the Empire AB 6th ed
Repeater pistol – as in the NEB
Helblaster Volley Gun – as in the Empire AB 6th ed
Steam Tank – rules as in the NEB with the exception that the player needs to roll a D3 when building up the steam points.

MAGIC BANNERS (added or changed to the existing in the NEB)

Griffon Standard
50 pts

Banner of Middenheim – as in the Chronicles 2004
45 pts

Standard of the White Wolf – as in the Chronicles 2004
pts the same

Banner of the Warrior True – as in the Chronicles 2004
pts the same





Ufff...that would be all.I hope it's not to much and I didn't do any fatal mistakes 
Writing such thing is rather easy. Playtesting - this is far more important. I will play a few games this week using this 'revised' list and tell you later what is to powerful and what is not (hopefully nothing but I'm probably wrong as always). So I have one big request. If you can...playtest this army list and give feedback. Again I will stress this...nothing is impossible (even a revision...a tiny small one of our book) when people will work together and act as one voice. On the other hand, it's difficult to satisfy everybody. So, read, comment, ask question and I will give answers as best as I can.

Two more things

There is no robocop horse. My uncle who works in Nuln told me that there were some problems with razors or sth and all robohorses were simply turned into new razors (tough luck).
Imperial dragon...I've read in Altdorf Chronicles that they had a famine...a great one, gigantic and big...you know. And, the thing is...they ate the dragon because there was no food and the dragon was big and juicy and meaty and thus no imprial dragon for KF. OK...I speak utter utter rubbish. 


Again sorry for the split into 2 parts 

[phillyt]

There may be enough info here to constitute copyright infringment, but Perambulator would know better.

Still, you have the point costs listed clearly, which I think is bad when displayed in this manner.

Maybe just list what you changed, though you have done a marvelous job here.

Phil

[Thrawn]

Hmmm...I thought about it. It would be better if I did sth similar woth Tostig did - in pdf format to download but I'm not that intelligent when it comes to such issues. So maybe the mods could erase things that are prohibited under the law or I could send to those that want the list in word document. I'm confused and 

[dabber]

Maybe just list what you changed, though you have done a marvelous job here.

Bingo.  Putting in all the stats and the command group costs is overkill.  We don't need a full army book, we all know that.


Your halberdiers are flawed - 3+ close combat save.  Upgrade should be shield OR heavy armour.

I also hugely disagree with giving the handguns First Volley again.  The current book causes a real debate between handguns and crossbows.  The old book make handguns nearly a no-brainer, because of the first turn shot granted by First Volley.

[phillyt]

So maybe the mods could erase things that are prohibited under the law or I could send to those that want the list in word document. I'm confused and 

Don't be embarassed, copyright stuff is confusing.  GW has a problem when rules and point costs are posted in a manner that would allow someone to use the stuff without buying their books.  Thats all you need to worry about.  Take what you have added and make that the main info, and then list everything else as "see army book for details" or some such to avoid illegalities.

Nice work though 

Phil

[scarletsquig]

A list of changes and additions to the current empire book would be the best way to present this.

As it is, I'm struggling to find the differences between this list and the current empire army book, since it is mostly the same or similar. And that's before you consider any copyright issues.

Agree with your halberdier fix, completely.

Our book is pretty solid, IMO.. just needs a few tweaks here and there. I will be very annoyed if the 8th edition designer decides to be all "radical" and make lots of stupid changes where they aren't needed.

As I see it there are a few things that need to be addressed (this list is based on the empire army book, not your list):

- lack of good banners for under 50 points.
- VHS needs to go up in points a little.
- complete engineer rehaul, possibly allowing a single cannon or mortar as core, and letting him join helblaster/helstorm crews.
- small halberdier tweak.
- reworked steam tank to remove it's current "useless but impossible to kill points denial paperweight" status.
- war altar tweaked

Apart from those relatively minor things, we've got one of the more solid, well-balanced lists of 7th edition.

[Marwynn]

Yes, the Halberdiers are a bit too powerful with that combination; Shields or Heavy Armour would be the way to go. And please just remove the stuff that's the same, it'll turn your post into something that's a little easier to read through.

Now the weapon changes are interesting. Empire Halberds being Armour Piercing and Empire Spears fighting in 3 ranks. It's an interesting notion, it'd make the Halberdiers something to be respected and our Spearmen even more prickly than before.

But can that happen without an increase in points costs?

[Thrawn]

And please just remove the stuff that's the same, it'll turn your post into something that's a little easier to read through.

OK...I hope that helps and nobody will accuse me or this forum for posting copyrighted materials. Sorry for any problems guys 

[Thrawn]

lack of good banners for under 50 points.

There are now. Well...sort of. One doing down to 50pts and three new/old ones from the cult of ulric.

VHS needs to go up in points a little.

I don't have the needed knowledge to do this. As you can see all I did with magic stuff are the banners.

- complete engineer rehaul, possibly allowing a single cannon or mortar as core, and letting him join helblaster/helstorm crews.

BS5 is all we need and engineer upgrade for cannon and mortars should be enough. Hellblaster going back to its rules from 6th ed and to stop those who cry about it make it more costly.

- small halberdier tweak.

We All want that    HA+Shield or only HA. And armour piercing for the halberd itself and done. 5 maybe 6 points for a guy with such halberd and light armour...you buy him ha for one point and a nice soldier stands in front of you.

reworked steam tank to remove it's current "useless but impossible to kill points denial paperweight" status.

Probably a lot of people have bought the other versions of the ST. Now they can do nothing. Give such options like the former ST had and done plus change the steam points making to D3. IMHO

war altar tweaked

It's to good and there is only one in the entire Empire and many people use it. Make it more costly.

[Perambulator]

I missed the earlier version, but this version appears alright copyright-wise. 

[Fandir Nightshade]

damned typed my hunk off and it didn´t work....

so well once again, I don´t like the "feel" of the new zealous, lunatic empire but liked the empire state troopers army more lead by an elector count. So gimme back the griffon banner and make infantry a more juicy choice for me and I am in. So spears with three ranks ...fine for me but I would even pay 6-7 points per soldier in light armour and shield, halberdiers would be fine with 6 points also. I like the legendary knights rules but they are too nice especially the rules for the reiksguard.

[patsy02]

Excellent work! I, to my suprise agree 100% to everything you've posted 

[scarletsquig]

Spears don't need to be changed, they are currently a good choice, especially in large numbers, 7-wide and with warrior priest support.

If you want more ranks, introduce pikemen as a seperate unit instead of changing spears.

[cisse]

Spears don't need to be changed, they are currently a good choice, especially in large numbers, 7-wide and with warrior priest support.

If you want more ranks, introduce pikemen as a seperate unit instead of changing spears.

Hm, I disagree. I think pikes should be reserved for DoW and RoR units, to give them a distinct flavour. Half-pikes (ie strike in three ranks) would be a good rule for empire spears though. It's still not overpowered, and unless you put a priest in the unit (and are lucky enough to fight something weak like goblins, undead or skaven) swords will still be just as or more cost effective.

In fact, I'd make it a rule for empire polearms - so halberds strike in two ranks as well. That'd give them the equivalent of two S4 attacks each on the charge, but they'd still be die like flies. Sounds fun to me, and it'd give us a unit of state troops that is good on the offensive, something that's really lacking now.

[Warlord]

Some of the changes you have suggested are good, some I don't believe are necessary or should be generisized.

Here's my summary of what I believe should be the changes - some correspond to your list, some do not. Except for what is mentioned, all choices remain the same as 7th ed.

General
Halberd +6pts
Bodyguard rule for Greatswords is a good idea

Upgrade to a Elector Count
+100 pts
gain Runefang
gain +6 inches for leadership tests (if General)
lose -1 WS
lose -1 BS
Same equipment options / special rules

Arch Lector
War Altar costs 125 pts
NOT 0-1 (because for some reason if one exists, how come you can take Volkmar and an Arch Lector in the same army?)

Grand Master
If join a unit of Foot Knights, same benefits apply as though they were mounted (Immune to Psych)

Hero Choices
Upgrades as per my previously written rules here

Knights
Legendary Orders rules (however only 1 advantage / disadvantage per unit)

State Troops
Blanket State troop choice.
Light Armour, Hand Weapon.

Must purchase 1 upgrade:
Spear
Halberd
+1 WS / + 1 I

Can choose to purchase 1 other upgrade:
Shield
Heavy Armour

1 unit of State Troops (per General or Elector Count taken) can be made 'Veterans'. Veterans are a special choice.

Veterans have +1 WS / + 1 I and Heavy Armour
May choose a Halberd, Spear, Shield or HalfPike (3 ranks)

Archers
Can rank up at -1 pt
Unit size 10+

Huntsmen
Have Longbows
Unit size 8+

Greatswords
Can have a magic banner up to 50pts

1 unit of Greatswords (per Grand Master or Seneschual taken) can be made 'Foot Knights'. Foot Knights are a special choice.

Foot Knights have the same legendary attributes as the mounted knights (equipment and special rules)
Foot Knights do not have the 'State Troops' Special Rule.

Pistoliers
Can swap one pistol for a spear at no additional cost.
Can take a Standard Bearer for +14 pts

Flagellants
+2 pts
T4

Helblaster
Same rules / points cost as 6th
Misfire chart a little bit more nasty

Helstorm
Misfire chart a little bit more nasty

Steam Tank
Machine upgrades as listed, however once wounds reach 5, roll a D3 rather than a D6.

...........

Thats just what i think anyway. But yeah, good list Thrawn, got me thinking again about this stuff