Topic: Can the steam tank grind to enemies in front only?

[deadkez]

I asked this in my blog but none of my regular readers have replied, hence me reposting here:

Can a steam tank use its grind to the flanks and rear? OR only enemies to the front?

What happens if there is more than one unit in contact with it? Can I grind more than one unit in the same arc, or different arcs? Can I spread my steam points and allocate grinding to particular enemy units?

Lets see some rules:
p. 51 of Empire: "A steam tank engaged in close combat may grind its opponents by expending SP. Each expended SP inflicts D3 impact hits."
p. 63 of BSB: "Impact hits"
Some intro stuff... not relevant
"when a chariot charges.." not relevant to facing... just charging and results of damage.
"Main danger is charging.." not relevant
"Impact hits against a unit troops.." again not relevant to facing
But in 'Pursuit charges' it mentions that "only units charging the flank or rear of a charging chariot do not suffer". Are we to take this that the steam tank cannot grind enemy units in this fashion? Or are these rules just applicable to pursuing chariots?

I remember reading somewhere that chariots can cause impact hits on two units (and both units take the full hits) but can't remember where...

Tis a complex thing this grinding business.

Cheers

[Spiney]

The rules seem to be a little insufficient on this one.

Common sense says the tank should only be able to grind to the front, common sense also says it would be completely impossible to grind in more than one direction at once as even if it were possible you'd rip the tank apart.

To me calling them impact hits implies you are going forwards because impact hits can only ever be done in your forward arc, sideways would be impractical without some serious manoeuvring, I suppose a backwards grind wouldn't be impossible.

[phillyt]

To be honest I think you could argue that it does its grinding hits on everything touching it under the reading : "A steam tank engaged in close combat may grind its opponents by expending SP. Each expended SP inflicts D3 impact hits."

Front or not doesn't matter.  It only acts like a chariot with the exception of the rules lists.  Grinding through SP is listed so isn't followed under the rules for chariots.  Irrelevant.

Phil

[Obi]

More importantly, the book states that the steam tank is neither a chariot or a warmachine. So the rules for chariots don't count. I'd say it's only possible to grind to the front.

[steveb]

I agree with the idea, but I think that better way to express it would be to say that it grinds in the direction of travel be it forwards or backwards. steveb

[deadkez]

q) Is it a warmachine or a chariot?

a1) It is a warmachine in all respects except moving (chariot), shooting (a little), magic (affected only by spells with S), combat (impact hits/ auto-hit), pursuit (it can't), special rules (like unbreakable, large target aside). So it's deployed at same time as warmachines, does not give VPs for being under half wounds, etc.
 
a2) It is a chariot for the sake of movement. Which means, unless charging, it can move and end up facing in any direction. This would suggest that for movement alone, it has no rear/front/flank. Using movement for justification of grinding positions would make no sense under RAW. Using charging rules would alter this somewhat, but we are not discussing if the Tank is charging as there's little way that it could charge and be hit in the rear/flank in the same turn.

I am playing devils advocate here so please bear this in mind when answering.

[Spiney]

To be honest I think you could argue that it does its grinding hits on everything touching it under the reading : "A steam tank engaged in close combat may grind its opponents by expending SP. Each expended SP inflicts D3 impact hits."

Although grinding in all four directions each turn would be a little difficult practically speaking, the tank can hardly move forward (effectively what grinding would require) in all four directions simultaneously without pulling itself to bits, even if the way its wheels worked meant it was possible to lurch sideways.

[Matt Weckman]

I'm almost certain that you can only affect one unit at a time with a grind if you are engaged with more than one enemy unit. Only one unit takes the hits, not all engaged units.

It makes sense to me, at the very least, that you could grind backward as well as forward. You could make a case for left and right as well. Think about it; if your car were completely surrounded by a mob, and you turned right and accelerated, in a very short time it would suck to be one of the guys on the right. Maybe not instantly, but very soon.

[queek]

This question was submitted as part of the Empire FAQ project.

Short answer, there isn't a clear answer.  Nothing that I can see in the rules prevents it, but given that it isn't really addressed, we're hoping that Alessio clears this little issue up one way or the other in a couple weeks.

As a note, the STanks' status as war machine vs chariot is beside the point.  Grinding is *impact hits* and follow the rules for them.  The rules for impact hits can be found in the Chariot section of the BRB, but that doesn't make gut-barging Ogres chariots. . . . .

[queek]

I'm almost certain that you can only affect one unit at a time with a grind if you are engaged with more than one enemy unit. Only one unit takes the hits, not all engaged units.

The chariot's Pursuit Charges rules indicate otherwise.  In the only mention of impact hits vs multiple units mentioned in the rules, the impact hits are inflicted to both units at full force. 

[Matt Weckman]

Isn't that interesting. Thanks for the clarification, Queek!

[deadkez]

The chariot's Pursuit Charges rules indicate otherwise.  In the only mention of impact hits vs multiple units mentioned in the rules, the impact hits are inflicted to both units at full force. 

I still can't find this rule. I know it exists but where?
Edit: Ignore me, I know... I thought there was a different mention on this somewhere.

[Rufas the Eccentric]

This question was submitted as part of the Empire FAQ project.

we're hoping that Alessio clears this little issue up one way or the other in a couple weeks.

Now that is really interesting.  I take it that you have inside knowledge on the status of the FAQ.

What is to prevent the steam tank from pivoting to grind into a unit on it's flank?

[Crimsonsphinx]

From a model perspective, it would be rather odd if it couldn't grind all the way around, have you seen the sharp bits on the sides?  Perhaps it would be poor at grinding backwards, but as the tank can turn, theres nothing to stop it driving up and down a regiment like a combine harvester

[phillyt]

Crimson thats exactly what I meant (I love the idea of a combi harvester).  The old rules used to expend steam to spin it 45 degrees.  With this in mind, why couldn't an Engineer torque the wheel sideways and just tromp on the steam pedal, spinning the tank and flinging the annoyances around him in all directions.  The old rule for grinding clearly stated tank drove back and forth throug hthe unit.  Then again the tank back then could mow right out of combat.

As for only doing grinds to the front where are people finding anything that would imply this is the limit?  I just looked back through the rules and can't really see where anything that could be interperted as that existists.

Phil

[Crimsonsphinx]

The other way I interpreted all around grinding was the engineer in the tank vents boiling water/steam on the enemies attempting to engage it in combat.  This is a valid method of fighting

What are we doing trying to make our most powerful unit worse?  I don't see asur players trying to make their dragons worse!

[Darrwood]

To be honest I think you could argue that it does its grinding hits on everything touching it under the reading : "A steam tank engaged in close combat may grind its opponents by expending SP. Each expended SP inflicts D3 impact hits."

Although grinding in all four directions each turn would be a little difficult practically speaking, the tank can hardly move forward (effectively what grinding would require) in all four directions simultaneously without pulling itself to bits, even if the way its wheels worked meant it was possible to lurch sideways.

A steam tank would have no trouble crushing everyone, and everything around it.  This is a problem that has been encountered in historical context.   The Engineer would simply put the wheels on the right side forward, and the wheels on the left side in reverse.  This causes the tank to spin rapidly.  Anyone, and anything near the tank would get pushed in, and caught under the wheels, sides, other people, etc.  Also, remember the at this time period, ranks are used to push the front men forward, so people in combat are rather tightly squeezed.  With that said, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the guy in front when a 4 ton behemoth started spinning in circles as I am being pushed forward into it. 

[Brionne]

I think that the whole 'spinning in circles' idea is rather unrealistic. Remember, this is not a new sportscar doing burnouts and donuts on the tarmac, this is a steam-powered behemoth trying to turn in a boggy field. The stank is much more connected to the tanks in WWI, which were slow and cumbersome. Spinning would be at a speed of something like 0.25 rpm, rather than the 10 (or more) suggested below.
The way I see it, the stank can only grind units engaged in the front and back as grinding relies on the mass of the stank suddenly pressing forward and crushing things. It seems very awkward if it could do the same thing sideways...   

[steveb]

The other way I interpreted all around grinding was the engineer in the tank vents boiling water/steam on the enemies attempting to engage it in combat.  This is a valid method of fighting

What are we doing trying to make our most powerful unit worse?  I don't see asur players trying to make their dragons worse!

the very early 80's open topped tank was supposed to vent steam out the sides to hit the enemy in close combat, they had little heads along the sides which were supposed to spout the steam.  I loved that older tank, it had a coal bin, water tank, hand cranks on the steam cannon, and an actual ships steering wheel. Dam I miss the old days.  steveb

[queek]

Pursuit charges are mentioned at the bottom of pg 63.  This is the only mention of impact hits vs multiple units in the rules.  There is *nothing* in the Steam Tank rules that indicates any limitation on its grinding ability.  (Doesn't mean that GW won't errata one, but they aren't supposed to be doing erratas, just FAQs.)

Direwolf was told that Alessio had the Empire FAQ and one or two others complete, and that they should be up on the web by the end of this month.  Weeds was the other, there may be a third.  We shall see, hopefully.   

[Wyzer1]

Nice to see they waited just enough time that I barely care anymore

I wouldn't mind seeing the intentions of somethings

While most of them seem obvious, things like this topic are not quite as clear

[Cannonofdoom]

Don't worry, this topic won't even be in the FAQ.

Probably something about how awesome halberdiers are though.

[Powder Monkey]

A steam tank would have no trouble crushing everyone, and everything around it.  This is a problem that has been encountered in historical context.   The Engineer would simply put the wheels on the right side forward, and the wheels on the left side in reverse.  This causes the tank to spin rapidly.  Anyone, and anything near the tank would get pushed in, and caught under the wheels, sides, other people, etc.  Also, remember the at this time period, ranks are used to push the front men forward, so people in combat are rather tightly squeezed.  With that said, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the guy in front when a 4 ton behemoth started spinning in circles as I am being pushed forward into it. 

Darrwood, you based your assumptions on the wrong kind of tank, sadly. The maneuver you described is only possible for tracked tanks like in the second world war, which transmit their weight to the earth beneath them over a huge surface area, lowering the pressure per area considerably. I am told many tanks could drive right over your foot without leaving permanent damage. This enables the spinning maneuver in question, with much of the tracks sliding over the ground during the turning. The Imperial steam tank is a wheel propelled and possibly low powered vehicle, most propably placing huge amounts of weight on the ground per surface area. Given its small wooden wheels and the fact that only the back wheels are actually powered by the steam engine, I can't imagine the thing to turn on the spot. Most likely the front wheels are somewhat steerable, making for a considerable turning arc. But driving in little circles like mad, crushing regiments all around...

Well, it's a game, after all. I think we just have to accept that the steam tank can somehow turn on the spot and drive around like an off road 4*4, but strictly fluffwise speaking, I'd say it is a rather unwieldy beast.



Your master engineer par excellence, PM

[phillyt]

I think that the whole 'spinning in circles' idea is rather unrealistic. Remember, this is not a new sportscar doing burnouts and donuts on the tarmac, this is a steam-powered behemoth trying to turn in a boggy field. The stank is much more connected to the tanks in WWI, which were slow and cumbersome. Spinning would be at a speed of something like 0.25 rpm, rather than the 10 (or more) suggested below.
The way I see it, the stank can only grind units engaged in the front and back as grinding relies on the mass of the stank suddenly pressing forward and crushing things. It seems very awkward if it could do the same thing sideways...   

WW1 tanks had independant tracks.  One could go forward and one could go backwards, turning them in place.  There main problem was a catastrophic lack of horse power.  On th plus side they had the ability to gift their operators with the power of CARBON MONOXIDE!  Feel the BURN!

A steam tank could cut left and rigth while chargin steam.  Keep in mind, if the enemy is pressing it to attack, then it doesn't have to go that far to swing and kill a fleshy enemy.  The thing has the HP to hit 15" if it wants to, so it is considerably more powerful than a WW1 tank, and could hit speeds higher than a WWII tank for the most part (if we guess that 16" movement is like 36 MPH).

Phil

[Shadowlord]

Probably something about how awesome halberdiers are though.

Hopefully a nerf, they are just way too over-powered as they are now...

I go with Queek as there are no rules in the books preventing it from grinding as it does.