Topic: The Minotaurs: 3000 point battle report versus Chaos Warriors!

[PhillyT]

I have to disagree with Shadowlord.  I read thro0ugh all of the fluff once again last night and found it no better or worse than any other army book.  At no point did it imply the BEastmen would be the end of the world, only that within their own minds if things progress the way they have they will take back the realms of man.  It is implied that outside their forests and some specific wastelands, they are relatively powerless.

Within the woods, yes, they are implied to rule without much question.  There is only a single point where there are mentioned to be thousands of minotaur, and thats the Brassbulls legion which is a mile long.  Not a very significant thing when you figure it took hours for a Roman legion to march past a specific point in a road and it was only about 8000 men.  As for the book implying Ungor are more than a match for a greatswordsmen, I found nothing to support that one.  It might be in there but there were many more entries where it specifically says the ungor are sallys who get beat up and eaten by the gors almost like goblins.  There might be some hyperbole, but I suspect it is the Swedish sort.  I am assuming we are reading the English book.

And there is nearly as much discussion about the Beastmen of Bretonnia and the wastes in the eastern Empire as in the Drakenwald.

As for the book itself, I like the new fluff where the beastmen are mating within their own communities rather than being replenished purely through mutations within human and animal populations.  Makes them that much nastier when you imagine them getting it on in their stinking masses.  Now human mutants are considered lesser creatures and often forced to live within the ungor communities.  There is that neat bit of fluff where there are maniac humans from that sanitorium who eat the other humans along side the gor and were accepted into the herd because of it because the gor found it comical.

Taureus:  Thats hilarious.  I love it when people act like complete idiots leading into a book.  The funny thing is he comments on how much he likes the rares yet they are just as soft as minotaurs in their own way!

Phil

[Mathi Alfblut]

There are no swedish version of the book, Philly. We use the same english version as you do.

[PhillyT]

Thats what I figured.  So the hyperbole is derived from the reader not the text.  This is not the first time Shadowlord has used extreme comments to illicit the desired response.  He is very good at it.

Phil

[Moxer]

I too think that the fluff is far from awesome. But that is the case with most warhammer fluff in my opinion. The beastman fluff is poor because there is not much culture amongst beastmen to write about, so the authors write mostly about how ferocius they are and that they like to rip apart everything in their path.
A bit boring all in all. The "story" parts however are quite nice.

[Midaski]

So the hyperbole is derived from the reader not the text.  This is not the first time Shadowlord has used extreme comments to illicit the desired response.  He is very good at it.

A troll - what? ....... No Never .................... 

[rufus sparkfire]

The dark elf book has really bad fluff.

Nothing to do with this thread, but true.

[Siberius]

I don't think anyone should be expecting a fluff masterpiece about beasts. The only way you can make it more interesting is to write from other races (mostly humans) perspectives.

I never expected to get much in the way of stories I could dig into and base fluff around with beasts, because... well... they're a bit wild aren't they. Society is not really their thing.

From what Philly says, my fluff will still be perfectly fine and with the whole mating with each other thing, probably even better chance that an army like mine could exist, one that is more uniform and less about the flailing tentacles.



The problem with Dark Elf fluff is that they are supposed to be driven almost entirely by hate and greed, which makes it hard to write in any kind of cool angles. It just is what it is. 

[dagonaki]

Granted, I have only glanced through PhillyT's copy of the Beastman book, but I didn't see anything suggesting them being unstoppable doomsday-heralds.  They're a savage race of killers and that is reflected rather well in their rules, I'd say.  I'll take another look at it at some point here, but really all army books are filled with a fair amount of chestbeating; 40k is rife with this.  Tyranids will devour the Empire...make peace with it, because it's going to happen...Orks are unstoppable;once they set foot on your homeworld, the best you can hope for is a quick death because their mushroom spore had now infected your planet  bwahahaa!  It's all the same stuff. Fantasy is actually pretty tame in comparison.

Also, showing my bias here, but the Dark Elf book is actually quite well written fluff-wise imo.  I do agree with Siberius though...they are painted a bit too monochrome with the whole hate/greed thing.  Kind of makes interplay between races difficult to picture.


Perhaps that's the point though.  The books strive to paint each of their armies in the best light possible to appeal to their base and thus should be taken with a heavy grain of salt.  No one wants to play the "pasty slaver crybabies" or the "inbred goat men on HGH."   

[Shadowlord]

Thats what I figured.  So the hyperbole is derived from the reader not the text.  This is not the first time Shadowlord has used extreme comments to illicit the desired response.  He is very good at it.

Not this time Mr No-Sense-of-Sarcasm.

Beastmen fluff irks me bad, and that is a first so no matter how eloquently you defend it, when I read that tripe I just shudder. Your love for horns makes your eyes letter blind if you think that crap is good (if great, I am leaving you...).

And since fluff matters to me, beastmen will pass my painting table.

I'll probably start with something less über-invincible, like Space Marines.

[rufus sparkfire]

Also, showing my bias here, but the Dark Elf book is actually quite well written fluff-wise imo.  I do agree with Siberius though...they are painted a bit too monochrome with the whole hate/greed thing. 

I don't know how they managed to fill a whole book with nothing but 'dark elves are nasty and like to kill stuff.'

[Siberius]

It's pretty easy really. You just copy and paste it.

[Shadowlord]

 

Minos - because we eat Bloodthirsters for breakfast.

Thanks for the pic even if your fluff view is kah-razy.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Yeah, he looks like he is so badass he takes on half a dozen bloodthirsters for breakfast!

And it do seem as if Philly... sorry, I mean Grilly, has been totally blinded by his love for beastialities. 

By the way, it is the hyperbole style fluff that really sucks and puts me of from armies. Like it put me of from HE when the new book slammed down. And with druchiis being all impossible to function as a society really etc...

Now, maybe I should do as Shadowlord and start a balanced and soft army, like Space Wolves or something...

[MrDWhitey]

By the way, it is the hyperbole style fluff that really sucks and puts me of

Blahahahahahahaha

 

[dagonaki]

The Dark Elves are one of the only evil armies that does have a society to speak of when you think about it.  Sure it's a 10 to 1 ratio of slaves to citizens, and their economy is centered around looting other cultures goods, but they actually have cities, government (despotic though it may be), an economy, organised religion,etc...  The only other evil armies that can make that claim are Skaven and perhaps Ogre Kingdoms- and that's only if you consider the Ogres to be outright evil.  The rest are either undead, demons from the warp, roaming cultist warbands or psychotic Orc hordes. Let's face it; if they all sat down at the dinner table, only the Dark Elves would know which forks to use. 

[PhillyT]

Dark Elves have no more claim on civilization than any other evil army.  Chaos Warriors and beastmen both have religion and cities of their own types.  Nor is the Dark Elf economy any more sensical or its society sustainable.  On one hand it implies it has been around for millenia as they murdered thousands of their own kind.  Or the fact that despite having less population than the HE to start, they are apparently more populous while having the opposite of a nurturing society.  Meanwhile the HE are dwindling despite taking care of their kids...

Back to beastmen.  I don't think the fluff is any better or worse than last edition or any other book for that matter.  It is what it is.  It certainly isn't so bad that the army is unlikeable.  I liked the feel of the last edition, but they have seperated the army from chaos well and redifined parts to justify it.  I like the mating concept.  Nothing else is significantly different from the 6th edition book, certainly not enough so to ellicit the response from Shadowlord.

Phil

[Warlord]

Dark Elves have no more claim on civilization than any other evil army.  Chaos Warriors and beastmen both have religion and cities of their own types.  Nor is the Dark Elf economy any more sensical or its society sustainable.  On one hand it implies it has been around for millenia as they murdered thousands of their own kind.  Or the fact that despite having less population than the HE to start, they are apparently more populous while having the opposite of a nurturing society.  Meanwhile the HE are dwindling despite taking care of their kids...

Agree. Dark Elf fluff has a lot of gaps in common sense regarding sustainability.

Back to beastmen.  I don't think the fluff is any better or worse than last edition or any other book for that matter.  It is what it is.  It certainly isn't so bad that the army is unlikeable.  I liked the feel of the last edition, but they have seperated the army from chaos well and redifined parts to justify it.  I like the mating concept.  Nothing else is significantly different from the 6th edition book, certainly not enough so to ellicit the response from Shadowlord.

To be fair, I didn't read in detail the previous book so have no ability to provide a comparison. And I'm not sure what I was expecting from this book - I guess I wanted to see something that never would have been in there - stuff not related to how they are going to destroy all the kingdoms of men. Something else. Something with just a bit more about their newly refined relationship with Chaos. Something about various other beastmen mutations from around the world. Ah well. Something with a bit more about their relationship to Morrslieb. Something with a bit more of a raider / ambush feel, rather than forest bursting at the seems with beasts. Something that makes them feel primal - rather than angry men in beast costumes. I just didn't get that from the book.

But anyway, thats just what I think.

Also, would a picture of the Jabberslythe be out of the question? All I can think of is a giant bug. Which is pretty much what it is supposed to be, but it doesn't really fit with the furry feeling of the rest of the list IMO. Harpies to a degree also.

I like the mating concept.

Indeed.

[PhillyT]

To be fair, I didn't read in detail the previous book so have no ability to provide a comparison. And I'm not sure what I was expecting from this book - I guess I wanted to see something that never would have been in there - stuff not related to how they are going to destroy all the kingdoms of men.

Well what did you want, information on their highly sophisticated banking system and their crosstitch hobbies?

Something else. Something with just a bit more about their newly refined relationship with Chaos.

Well they are no longer beholding to the warriors and instead worship it as a unified type force with various.  Not much more really.

Something about various other beastmen mutations from around the world. Ah well. Something with a bit more about their relationship to Morrslieb.

The information about other mutations is in the 6th edition book.  Its like a single paragraph and not that interesting.  They cover the same information in the 8th edition book when they say beastmen can really look like anything as long as they have horns.

Something with a bit more of a raider / ambush feel, rather than forest bursting at the seems with beasts. Something that makes them feel primal - rather than angry men in beast costumes. I just didn't get that from the book.

Well the raider ambush stuff is all through the various battle descriptions.  They break it up a little by stating that the various types of beastman armies, ambush, horde, and chariot, are seperated by geography.  The Drakenwalf beastmen seem more ambush hordy, the Gorthor western armies are chariot hordes, and the Arden type beastmen are hordey and ambushy in that order.

Also, would a picture of the Jabberslythe be out of the question? All I can think of is a giant bug. Which is pretty much what it is supposed to be, but it doesn't really fit with the furry feeling of the rest of the list IMO. Harpies to a degree also.

Certainly not a giant bug.  It is more of a flying chaospawn too crazy to make a picture of, but here is mine:



Phil

[Nicholas Bies]

Deathclaw Griffon wings... cool.

[PhillyT]

Actually 4th edition Brettonian Hippogryph wings!  Might be the same though.  I have had that model for 12 years and never had anything to do with it.

Phil

[Moxer]

The Jabberslythe is probably based on the Jabberwock featured in a (nonsense) poem by Lewis Caroll. The most famous interpretation of this creature is this one:

[Shadowlord]

Nothing else is significantly different from the 6th edition book, certainly not enough so to ellicit the response from Shadowlord.

 

Yeah because I am the only one in this thread who thought the writer(s) shoved the beastmen awesomesauce down our throats.

The books is written like this - what do we fill the three times as big fluff section with? The same over-cooked superiority of the beastmen, over and over again, with no recollection of losses except for a snippet where Gorthor was defeated. Talabheim, Altdorf and Middenheim are falling as I type this, because no matter how high the walls of those cities are, and no matter how well defended, when Kazrak farts, they all come tumbling down and mankind dies of a  massive heart attack. There is nothing that warrants such repetitive lack of flavour.
 
The former book at least had some imagination left.

So yes, the answers from me will still be - the writers of this fluff are morons and are clearly devoid of the words "subtle" and "imagination".

A shame since the rules, the models, and the conversion possibilities almost had me swayed.

[Warlord]

Something else. Something with just a bit more about their newly refined relationship with Chaos.

Well they are no longer beholding to the warriors and instead worship it as a unified type force with various.  Not much more really.

I guess that was purposefully left out to seperate them from Chaos - I'm just not sure why they even needed to be separated. It just seems like they are constantly angry because men built some houses in their land. Kinda boring motivation for an army really IMO. Thats why I mentioned Morrslieb, because that is kinda interesting.

Something about various other beastmen mutations from around the world. Ah well. Something with a bit more about their relationship to Morrslieb.

The information about other mutations is in the 6th edition book.  Its like a single paragraph and not that interesting.  They cover the same information in the 8th edition book when they say beastmen can really look like anything as long as they have horns.

I thought it was a full page *shrug* Doesn't bother me that much, I understand that they base most books around the old world, and thats fine, I guess I always just like the nod to the rest of the world that it actually exists.

Something with a bit more of a raider / ambush feel, rather than forest bursting at the seems with beasts. Something that makes them feel primal - rather than angry men in beast costumes. I just didn't get that from the book.

Well the raider ambush stuff is all through the various battle descriptions.  They break it up a little by stating that the various types of beastman armies, ambush, horde, and chariot, are seperated by geography.  The Drakenwalf beastmen seem more ambush hordy, the Gorthor western armies are chariot hordes, and the Arden type beastmen are hordey and ambushy in that order.

Not quite what I meant. It would be more interesting if it was actually a part of the fluff, rather than making it seem like they always fight wars on their masterminded, strategic view to destroy the world of men with their tactical strikes at major cities that are waiting to fall. Having it in war stories is all well and good, but have the fluff reflect that then.

What about their relationship with the Woodelves. That seemed played down a significant amount IMO - mainly that the WE have their forests, and the beastmen don't really go into them.

...

Anyway, discussing our own likes and dislikes of fluff is like arguing about various styles of miniature scuplts and saying which one is better. Its all just a matter of opinion, and I am going to leave it at that.

By the way, I remember that picture of the Jabberwocky, and that may very well be what they were aiming for, but they way I read it, I was seeing some kind of giant Dragonfly / Mosquito thing.

[Mathi Alfblut]

Indeed, a more varied perspective on the races glories and setbacks is more sweet to read. Each army book should make sense visavi the others.
When your read the present Empire book or the Greenskin book, sure there are glories to be told, but still, it is about grim struggle, not about soon crushing everything before them.
Even greenskin, with all the stories about their glories, also have mentions about their defeats.

And I trust Shadowlords word and taste above yours in this regards, Philly. Shadowlord is the GW master fanboy here, and when he gets critical, he usually have on his feet. He don´t go of whining for nothing. If he have issues with GW stuff, they are usually true issues.
I liked to own many army books, not because I fielded all armies, or because I needed all for military intelligence, but because they complemented each other, told another part of the story and gave you a wider picture.
But books briming with Hyperbole about one race does not really add anything. GW just lost some bucks. I might have bought the book if the Beasts where made a bit more interesting, now, they just sound angry and awesome. Not very interesting.

Just shows that they are a bit... redundant. There are Orcs & Goblins. Who needs others when you got such awesome kickers as antagonists!  All other "Bad guys" looks rather pathetic in comparission.

Oh, wait, I can hear the complains coming. 40K orkz are all glorified! They never loose etc...
Sorry, but that would be bollocks. They never loose not because they don´t but because they just live for the fight. If you die having a good fight you just won the great Green lottery!
Also, the story of Grazhkull is tied with the story of Yarrick. Both showing a grudging respect for each other, and the description of the Armageddon wars are a story of glories and defeats for both sides.
That is how all fluff should be, less "WERESOLEEETTTTROXOR!!!" However, that stuff appeals to the Timmys. And it seems to appeal to more mature fans aswell, but they seem less able to accept that it appeals on that basic level and claim it is exellent and not overdone.

[rufus sparkfire]

The Jabberslythe is probably based on the Jabberwock featured in a (nonsense) poem by Lewis Caroll. The most famous interpretation of this creature is this one:

They should have just called it a jabberwock, really. Especially since they already exist in old versions of warhammer.