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Author Topic: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire  (Read 49807 times)

Offline Nightshadow

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2008, 01:15:55 PM »
Sorry for performing serious threadomancy, but I haven't seem the review of lores appear in the war room, and it's a shame, because it is a wonderfully useful and informative piece of literature for nearly everyone.

How far is it completede as of yet?
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #226 on: July 13, 2008, 06:32:38 PM »
The first volumes been complete for three months or so now. We're waiting on Calvin to get around to posting it. Volume 2 is still missing what's listed in earlier posts.
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Offline Nightshadow

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #227 on: July 13, 2008, 11:22:22 PM »
Ok, it's good to hear all this usefull information is not going to waste. I wish I could help you complete Vol. II, but I hardly play against the armies that are not yet covered, so that won't do you any good.

BTW, maybe chaos should be split into beasts/mortals and deamons, because of deamons being quite different.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #228 on: July 14, 2008, 04:33:02 AM »
I would suggest that DoW magic would be very similar to playing against Empire, except Empire get prayers and magic enhancement items.

Just a thought...
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #229 on: July 14, 2008, 07:28:52 AM »
I promised to do part of volume two.

Perambulator, please start bugging me about it 2nd half of August...
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #230 on: July 14, 2008, 01:01:53 PM »
I promised to do part of volume two.

Perambulator, please start bugging me about it 2nd half of August...

Hey warhammerlord_soth! Oh wait.. you said 2nd half of August... nevermind... I'll get back to you (remind me!  :blush: )
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #231 on: July 14, 2008, 01:02:18 PM »
I would suggest that DoW magic would be very similar to playing against Empire, except Empire get prayers and magic enhancement items.

Just a thought...

Noted.
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Offline Iridian

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #232 on: August 30, 2008, 04:03:45 PM »
Bump.
2nd Half of august has almost passed.
What's the status of this excellent work?


Offline Calvin

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #233 on: August 30, 2008, 04:54:39 PM »
It is at long last being added to the site's War Room this weekend.  :-)
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Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #234 on: August 30, 2008, 04:59:27 PM »
I promised to do part of volume two.

Perambulator, please start bugging me about it 2nd half of August...
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #235 on: September 01, 2008, 03:01:59 AM »
Hey warhammerlord_soth: Start working on your part of Volume 2!
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #236 on: September 01, 2008, 03:08:40 AM »
It is at long last being added to the site's War Room this weekend.  :-)

Thanks Calvin!  :::cheers:::
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #237 on: September 01, 2008, 10:12:44 AM »
Good stuff,

Its been a long project, im glad it is done though :)
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #238 on: September 01, 2008, 03:12:02 PM »
Good stuff,

Its been a long project, im glad it is done though :)

It's not done! I still have Volume 2 to complete!!!
Here's the list of what we have done and what we are still missing for specific armies (contributions are demanded):

Done:
High Elves
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Orcs
Beastmen
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Brettonia
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampires
Generic Cavalry Armies

Expecting:
Generic Horde Armies from CaptScott
Generic Shooty Armies from CaptScott
Empire from warhammerlord_soth

To Do:
Skaven
Chaos Dwarves
Dogs of War
Chaos
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #239 on: September 02, 2008, 08:12:48 AM »
Chaos do not currently exist?  Do you mean mortals, beasts, or daemons?  All play different and could well have different magic lores by the end of the year.

I am unsure what you mean?  Do you mean tactica on their spells, or our spells vs those armies?
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Offline Moxer

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #240 on: September 02, 2008, 09:23:52 AM »
I think it was our spells versus those armies.
Demons could be done by now, mortals should follow by the end of the year.
Beasts...well, somebody could do it now and revise it when they finally get updated
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #241 on: September 02, 2008, 01:04:18 PM »
You know Crimsonsphinx, I just cut and paste that list from the 6th edition one and no one caught that bit about Chaos before! That may be why I haven't been getting any offers on that. I'll change the list to add the separate Chaos armies.


Volume 2 is an analysis of how each Empire lore stacks up against our opponents. For example, here's a link to what Gneisenau put together for the High Elves:

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=19297.msg231094#msg231094

Volume 3 would be army specific spells against the Empire - what to watch out for, etc. But I haven't started that yet.

Done:
High Elves
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Orcs
Beastmen
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Brettonia
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampires
Generic Cavalry Armies

Expecting:
Generic Horde Armies from CaptScott
Generic Shooty Armies from CaptScott
Empire from warhammerlord_soth

To Do:
Skaven
Chaos mortals
Chaos Beasts
Chaos Daemons
Dogs of War

« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 01:07:33 PM by Perambulator »
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #242 on: September 02, 2008, 04:59:53 PM »
Okay good stuff.  As the only thing I have contributed so far is the light magic bit right at the start, I figure I can at least add a bit more to it.  Feel free to edit this with others information   :-D
 
Skaven

Fire magic
Most fire magic is pretty good against skaven.  Lots of direct damage spells means pretty much every spell apart from flaming sword is useful.  The biggest downside to picking fire magic is you are unlikely to cause any significant damage to any ranked units with most of the spells.  Conflagration of Doom can send them running for dispel dice though as it has the most potential to do harm. 
My verdict: 6/10.  By all means take this, you will not be short of targets, but it will not win you the game.

Metal magic
Most metal magic works based on armour saves, and skaven with no knights are not a very good target for this lore.  A level 2 may struggle to roll up any spells that are actually useful.  While there is a decent attack spell in Distillation of Molten silver, you are by no means guaranteed it, and fire/death provide a more flexible lore against this foe.
My verdict: 3/10.  Probably the least useful lore vs skaven, not enough spells work well enough to warrent inclusion.

Shadow magic
A contender against skaven, although it does have high casting values.  Creeping death is pretty effective against t3 targets, although obviously it is better against higher armour.  You are really looking for Shades of Death, Unseen Lurker and Crown of Taidron though.  Fear, extra movement and hits on every unit in range are very handy.  Steed of shadows is not bad either.  Just don't get Pit of shades, as skaven have high initiative.
My verdict: 5/10.  Many good spells, but pretty high casting values on the spells you want limit its application without a wizard lord.

Beasts magic
Cheap and easy to cast.  The beast cowers is not very useful against Skaven and neither is The bears anger.  Most of the other spells are useful and cheap enough to cast.  Wolf hunts being the stand out spell in the lore, although it is not as good as Unseen Lurker it is significantly easier to cast.
My verdict: 5/10.   Any wizard can do well with this, but the base spell is not very handy.  Many spells while cheap are worse than other lists equivalents, eg The crows feast.

Heavens magic
A good reliable spell lore against any foe, this remains true against Skaven.  With unlimited range on all three attack spells, providing you can see the target, this allows a heavens mage to "snipe" jezzails and warplightning cannons from the other side of the board.  Celestial shield is very good for our troops protection against the myriad of warpstone fueled guns that typically appear in a skaven army.  Portent and Second sign work well with rerolling 1s to wound for cannons as well as helping out in close combat.
My verdict: 8/10.  Along with fire this is a spell lore you want.  While it does not have many game winning spells, most of them act as a force multiplier allowing your infantry a vital edge against otherwise fairly equally matched skaven foot troops.

Light magic
Light magic is generally pretty useful against evil armies.  However against skaven it loses a lot of its bite, simply because they do not have many psychology test causing units or effects.  These are mostly limited to fear from the very rare rat ogres and screaming bell random results.  This means guardian light is of no real value.  Taking that out of the equation leaves Dazzling brightness and Cleansing Flare as the two spells you really want from the lore and possibly Burning gaze.  Phas and Healing energy are off less use vs skaven than many armies.
My verdict: 4/10.  Only really two spells of stand out use against skaven.  Would be better picking another lore.

Life magic
Terrain dependant, so take the tables layout into account before picking this lore.  Most of the spells are very good against skaven but are short ranged without the appropriate feature on the table top.  It is likely to be either the best or worst lore against skaven, as the horde nature of the list means something should be near or in most terrain at some point.  Rain Lord is exceptional vs their rattling guns, and Howler wind also works well.  Every single spell can work well against them.
My verdict: 1/10-10/10 dependant on terrain.

Death magic
Very similar in application to fire, but without the virtually useless flaming sword.  Lots of magic missiles work well, Steal soul can be used to snipe enemy characters leading from the back too.  Walking death, Doom and Darkness and Drain life are all very good spells.  Doom and Darkness and Walking death can both win combats on their own and should be considered prime spells. 
My verdict: 10/10 Much like life magic there are no bad spells, but this lore is not terrain dependent.  Take this one first!






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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #243 on: September 02, 2008, 05:05:26 PM »
Woo hoo! Thanks Crimsonsphinx!

I'm going to switch around the order of what's left to do now:

To Do:
Chaos mortals
Chaos Beasts
Chaos Daemons
Dogs of War


Expecting:
Generic Horde Armies from CaptScott
Generic Shooty Armies from CaptScott
Empire from warhammerlord_soth

Done:
High Elves
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Orcs
Beastmen
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Brettonia
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampires
Generic Cavalry Armies
Skaven


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Offline Mathias von Hochland

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Anti- Dogs of War Magic Tactica
« Reply #244 on: September 02, 2008, 07:08:42 PM »
I would REALLY like to point out, this is just general musings on DoW and how magic affects them, I don't play much against them, and I don't know of the latest "in things" all DoW generals do (like how us Empire generals have 3x3 detachments), but I've tried my best to contribute something valuable, even if I am tactically inept.
I don't think it's a good idea to accept this work as the core of the anti-DoW magic tactica, and I would like it if someone who knew what they were talking about could add things, especially as I feel I can compare what I've written with something a GW WD staff member could come up with (they suck at tactica in general). Also, grammer and syntax(?) issues might be a problem.



Due to the nature of the DoW, often units crop up that also appear in other lists, ie dwarfs and ogres. Learn how all the laws affect the other armies, and you'll know quite a bit on how to take out DoW.

Fire: General killy-ness. Useful for stripping ranks from block units (t3 for the most part), very suitable for removing Duellists and Light Cavalry. Norse Marauders are frenzied, so you'll get the chance to raze them all with Wall of Fire. Average leadership means Burning Head (and thus the Doomfire Ring) won't have a substantial effect. Flaming Sword of Ruin will instantly make your Imperial characters better in combat than their mercenary counterpart, still a duff spell though.

Metal: Maximum save is 2+, so the 2 big hitters (RoBI and SotF) have a lessened effect; however, the only defense DoW characters get is an Armour Save (what about Ward Save granting items... Bwah ha ha ha), so sniping characters with RoBI is definitely viable. 2d6 Str4 from DoMS is the standard "strip a rank or kill skirmishers and fast cavalry". Whilst reducing a unit's ability in close combat is nice, when they're sucky humans it's less important. DoW have access to 3 War Machines, so CoB will have some targets; important to note it doesn't stop a war machine from fleeing (I think), so plans for holding down Bronzino's Gallopers so you can charge it without it fleeing won't work probably. As for Law of Gold, just look at the Magic Items section for DoW and decide for yourself if it's useful; perhaps some of those funky RoR that have fancy magic items, otherwise  :icon_rolleyes:.

Heavens: rerolls are always nice, so PoF and SSoA have their place. It doesn't really matter whether Armour Saves are allowed or not, due to lack of high armour units, so in Heavens you get two lots of d6 Str 4 hits, 'cept UT is still good for Heavy Cavalry. Celestial shield is a bit superfluous, as I'm not convinced DoW armies go to war with lots of shooting. CoC is the heavy hitter of this lore; not useful against all-cav armies, or aggressive assault armies, but can scare (slow) war machines and perhaps Dwarfs.

Light:Meh, DoW not DoC, so this law has diminished power. Again, reducing a unit's effectiveness in combat is not so good when the unit isn't effective in the first place. Pha's Illumination (3 Str5 attacks?) is extra sucky, as the "no magic weapons" bonus means squat effectively. DoW lack means of putting psychological pressure on you, so Guiding Light is only beneficial if you like your units to be ItP; perhaps good to counter the ogres, giants, dragons, and that Undead unit. D6 Str4 hits is standard again, and due to DoW not being very "hoardy", CF ain't so good either.

Shadows: Movement spells=the win, so unseen lurker is a good one. PoS will mange the war machines, although look out if the Galloper Guns have a chance to take an I check for the spell I'm not sure here; you might also like to try this spell on DoW dwarfs, seeings as though they have low initiative. Causing Fear is nice when the opponent's only responce is a Ld check, but good for when ogres or the aforementioned Undead unit is on the pitch. SoS be wary of the core fast cavalry and skirmishers, otherwise there is a diminished amount of shooting so a SoS + CoT combo might work. On that note, CoT is a standard d6 Str4 affair, but be wary as it hurts your own troops too, but it'll hurt your opponent more as his units cost more.

Life: Yeah, depends on terrain. MoM can significantly slow down pesky fast cavalry, otherwise  :-P. Master of Wood can upset Mengil Manhide's Manflayers, and the ubiquitous "Master of Stone on the War Machine on the hill" approach is very valid too. Gift of Life doesn't really need anything additional said about it. Howler Wind will mess up all non-war machine shooting the DoW have, but I suspect they won't be relying on their shooting; good to annoy people using the Marksmen of Miragliano though. Rain Lord, again, won't affect a DoW generals plans much, but will certainly muck up usage of their (weak :icon_twisted:) Cannons.

Beasts: You won't be fleeing much, so Oxen Stands ain't so good but can be useful for stopping the pursuit/overrun thingie if your opponent wants to charge your fleeing troops with his Fast Cav or Birdmen. Hunter's Spear won't be presented with many glorious flank shots, but look out for cav heavy armies; equally for Beast Cowers. Movement spells=the win, so Wolf Hunts presents a nice possibility for some flanking with your 'nillas (you do have 'nillas don't you? The Crow's Feast is meh, 2d6 Str4 might see off the skirmishers and fast cav, after all, DoW are just T3 "humies". Bear's Anger might tear into your opponents troops, and it'll make you feel better for taking that VHS on your wizard only to come up against another paltry human, perhaps it'll help you be knock up more combat res, seeings as though many RoR get a "Captain-statted" unit champion.

Death: D6 and 2d6 Str4 hits are easy to know what to do with, so those spells don't need much explaining. Causing fear has it's bonuses, already amply described previously, but in addition, a flank defense unit that causes fear will have greater effect on any flanking units that are far away from the generals Ld , however, beware of nasty RoR characters with Ld8. Stealing wounds off of individual models is nice, and with the potential for the amount of characters DoW can have, it could come in useful. Drain Life is nice, but only really gets REALLY useful if the no saves part gets important, otherwise it's meh. Doom and Darkness is where it's at here, reducing Ld in an army where the best possible Ld is 9 is damn useful; use when you really want the enemy to flee, or when you're stuck up against darn DoW Dwarfs.

The only magic defense DoW can achieve really is through plain ol' Dispel Dice, Dispel Scrolls and the Staff of Sorcery (What's that? It's a common magic item, just carry on ignoring it...). Be fearful of when you face a DoW army with a Level 3/4 caster a a hero, the Dispel Dice can really rack up. All in all, DoW really are a generic army, you can use knowledge from vol. 1 of this tactica with impunity, safe in the knowledge that DoW barely have any of the negative aspects of the 8 lores described there.



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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #245 on: September 02, 2008, 07:34:42 PM »
Thanks Mathias von Hochland! Don't worry - I edit every submission for grammar and content to give the whole thing a unified feel. As with everything, I will also credit any commentary and correction on anything here, so if you, or anyone, sees something to change, please post it here and I will make it so.

We're getting there! Here's what's left:

To Do:
Chaos mortals
Chaos Beasts
Chaos Daemons

Expecting:
Generic Horde Armies from CaptScott
Generic Shooty Armies from CaptScott
Empire from warhammerlord_soth

Done:
Dogs of War
High Elves
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Orcs
Beastmen
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Brettonia
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampires
Generic Cavalry Armies
Skaven
Quote from: Johan Willhelm
Quote from: Dendo Star
Muppets do not have Hatred!
I bet "Animal" has Frenzy . . .

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #246 on: September 02, 2008, 08:01:27 PM »
I could do daemons, but not today.  I play them so I should know what is good against them.  Im not promising anything but I may have a look at them tomorrow night.
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #247 on: September 02, 2008, 08:05:43 PM »
If you can do it in a couple of days, that's a better pace than we've had so far! Go for it!

To Do:
Chaos mortals
Chaos Beasts

Expecting:
Generic Horde Armies from CaptScott
Generic Shooty Armies from CaptScott
Empire from warhammerlord_soth
Chaos Daemons from Crimsonsphinx

Done:
Dogs of War
High Elves
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Orcs
Beastmen
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Brettonia
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampires
Generic Cavalry Armies
Skaven
Quote from: Johan Willhelm
Quote from: Dendo Star
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I bet "Animal" has Frenzy . . .

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #248 on: September 03, 2008, 08:29:03 AM »
As promised.

Daemons are generally a strong magic army themselves.  Take care to load up on suitable magic defence unless you know you are against an all khorne, where these will probably be useless.  With this in mind, picking magic against daemons should be pretty straight forwards, as some lores get a significant boost.

Fire
The standard shooting magic based lore.  Good vs everyone, while never being outstanding.  The multitude of magic missiles come in handy, most daemons lack much in the way of saves, as their wards tend to be fairly low.  Can bring down a greater daemon with Fiery blast or conflagration on a good roll.  Flaming sword is a bit suicidal against an army so good in combat.  Wall of fire has a reasonable use.  Panic from burning head does not work, meaning its use is diminished.  Its worth noting that all flaming attacks work well against units with regeneration.
7/10:

Metal
Good advice would be to stay away.  Very few daemons wear conventional armour, so thats two spells out right away.  No warmachines and no magic items limits two other spells to worthless.  Do not pick this lore against daemons.  The spells that do work are easily surpassed by other lores equivalents.  The only tiny redeeming feature is that some spells are flaming, but other lores have these spells without all the poor choice spells which you may end up with instead.
1/10: Every spell is pretty much worthless

Shadow
A nice support lore.  Low initiative on nurgle and horror units means pit of shades will work well if the enemy has them.  Will not work very well against slaanesh troops so it can be problematic picking it.  Fear causing and unit moving is always useful, fear especially so to ensure your own troops do not suffer from it.  Steed of Shadows works reasonably well too, allowing your wizard to move about.  Just beware the multitude of fast moving and/or flying units that the daemon player will take as these can make short work of your wizard.  Creeping Death is probably the one weak spell against daemons as it is low strength and daemons do not wear armour.
6/10:  If all nurgle can be a 10/10 lore.

Light
The best lore against unholy creatures like daemons and undead.  All of its magic missile attacks are strength 6 against undead which can bring down even a greater daemon in no time.  Pha's as normal is pretty poor against daemons as they have no magic weapons that they need to kill your wizard.  Dazzling brightness and guardian lightare very good here too.  Worth taking for guardian light alone. The healing spell is a good support spell, but not particularly good as it will be combat most wounds are suffered.  The flaming nature of the high strengh magic missiles makes them a first choice against nurgle units.
9/10: 4 exceptional spells make this first choice.

Heavens
Another support and long range attack lore.  Portent and Second sign work as normal, helping win combats and aid shooting.  Celestial shield has limited use unless the enemy is tzeench, then you will be very glad to have it to protect from the barage of hits from flamers, although it may not protect from its variable strength magic missiles.  The two lightning spells give unlimited reach, but have a low number of hits.  Uranions ignoring save ability is useless.  Comet is always nice, although tough to cast.  You are really wanting the first three spells in this lore, but all the spells are usable.
6/10:

Beasts
Another support lore.  Bears anger is pretty useless against daemons and as this is the base spell it does not lend itself to an easy to pick lore.  Other spells like the Oxen stands can be useful, but prevention by other lores like light is better than cure from this spell.  The shooting attacks are weaker than most lores.  Wolf hunts is pretty good and the whole lore is cheap to cast.   Probably avoid this lore unless you have a level 1 mage and no real intent to cast.
4/10.

Life
Terrain dependent. This is one fact that determines the usefulness of life.  Many spells work well against shooting and daemons only have flamers who tend to move about, meaning many spells like rain lord, howler wind and master of stone are of limited use.  The other spells work pretty good, however you will need terrain on the table to get the best use from them. 
3/10. Could improve to 6/7 of of ten depending on composition of army, as more shooting improves the weaker spells.

Death
Shooting lore, like fire, but without the useless flaming sword.  Doom and Darkness is your friend, as it can cause extra casualties and possibly kill a greater daemon in one round of combat.  Two strong attacking spells, no bad spells.  A fear causing spell.  A good all round lore with no poor spells.  The flaming element is very helpful, as mentioned earlier.
9/10
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 08:39:47 AM by Crimsonsphinx »
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Offline Perambulator

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Re: Magic: An indepth look at the lores and how they work with the Empire
« Reply #249 on: September 03, 2008, 01:42:07 PM »
Sweet! Would you like to take a stab at the other two Chaos ones?

To Do:
Chaos mortals
Chaos Beasts

Expecting:
Generic Horde Armies from CaptScott
Generic Shooty Armies from CaptScott
Empire from warhammerlord_soth

Done:
Chaos Daemons
Dogs of War
High Elves
Lizardmen
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Orcs
Beastmen
Dark Elves
Dwarfs
Brettonia
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampires
Generic Cavalry Armies
Skaven
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