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Author Topic: Chaos Buddhism  (Read 14155 times)

Offline Shadowwolf

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Chaos Buddhism
« on: May 14, 2007, 12:48:06 PM »
Ok, I've been brooding on this question for quite a while, and still have got no answer!

The symbol of Buddhism and the symbol of Chaos is THE SAME!!! Why??
What ill omen is this? Is it a faint anti-buddhistic call out from GW, warning us for the impending doom brought upon us by tibetian monks, swarming from the north,led by the mighty champion Dalai Lama? Dalai Lama, who has reached immortality, and will come back, even if you kill him (He is really Archaon. I promise!)



The eightfold wheel is supposed to represent the eightfold path of the buddhist
1. To refrain from taking life. (i.e. non-violence towards sentient life forms)
2. To refrain from taking that which is not given (i.e. not committing theft)
3. To refrain from sensual misconduct (abstinence from immoral sexual behavior)
4. To refrain from lying. (i.e. speaking truth always)
5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (refrain from using drugs or alcohol)
6. To refrain from eating at the wrong time (only eat from sunrise to noon)
7. To refrain from dancing, using jewelery, going to shows, etc.
8. To refrain from using a high, luxurious bed.

But what about Chaos? I dare say they are the complete opposite of the buddhists, but who knows?

Does anybody have the slightest clue about this??

Shadowwolf
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 12:50:20 PM by shadowwolf »
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Offline Schmeag

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Re: Chaos Bhuddism
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2007, 12:53:47 PM »
With Chaos, it is the Eight Winds, is it not? As for symbols, people are ripping them off others all the time. After all, there are just so many you can come up with. ;)

EDIT:

Ah, here's something that may be of interest:
Link

EDIT2:

I'll explain myself further. You will notice the that the image of the eight-spoked wheel of Chaos is in fact assymetrical--just like the one listed in the Wikipedia article. The Dharmacakra, on the other hand, is orderly and symetrical. In this sense one can gain the opposing values presented by each symbol (although I am of the opinion that you can draw any meaning from any given object if you look at it long enough); the Dharma symbol is representative of law, order and discipline; the Chaos symbol is reprentative of an imbalance to the orderly nature of the world.

Also, drawing from this:

Quote from: Wikipedia
The dharma wheel can refer to the dissemination of the dharma teaching from country to country.

One could formulate that the two things (being shaped into the form of a wheel, whether symmetrical or asymmetrical) that have in common is this: Spread of belief. Chaos is said to be the inevitable downfall of the Empire, the Old World, and the Warhammer World at long last. The Dharmacakra 'can refer to the dissemination of the dharma teaching from country to country'.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 01:10:27 PM by Schmeag »

Offline Racticas

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2007, 03:47:53 PM »
The eightfold wheel is supposed to represent the eightfold path of the buddhist
1. To refrain from taking life. (i.e. non-violence towards sentient life forms)
2. To refrain from taking that which is not given (i.e. not committing theft)
3. To refrain from sensual misconduct (abstinence from immoral sexual behavior)
4. To refrain from lying. (i.e. speaking truth always)
5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (refrain from using drugs or alcohol)
6. To refrain from eating at the wrong time (only eat from sunrise to noon)
7. To refrain from dancing, using jewelery, going to shows, etc.
8. To refrain from using a high, luxurious bed.

I'm pretty sure that these "thou shalt nots" do not constitute the eightfold path as exposited by Buddha Guatama, but are an expansion of the Five Precepts of the fourth step, "Right Conduct".

The eightfold path is:
Right Views, Right Intent, Right Speech, Right Conduct, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration.

The Five precepts are:
1 Do not kill
2 Do not steal
3 Do not lie
4 Do not be unchaste
5 Do not drink intoxicants

Though it wouldn't surprise me if the the "eight commandments" you mentioned are some king or buddhist thinker's way of making it easier to remember the number "8" twice...  It could be something sectarian, I wouldn't know.

However-- your observation is extremely interesting, since another famous buddhist holy symbol was reinvented (and inverted) to represent something equally evil in the real world, this time in the form of the swastika.
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2007, 04:08:26 PM »
I find this discussion quite interesting. Keep in mind that the "wheel" is also the symbol of the eight magic winds themselves, and hence without context not necessarily a bad thing. It is a nice aspect of the warhammer world that the possibly greatest evil is also the source of magic.

Also, I appreciate the input on buddhism from people who seem to know something about it. Such topics are usually more informative than abstract wikipedia articles.

However-- your observation is extremely interesting, since another famous buddhist holy symbol was reinvented (and inverted) to represent something equally evil in the real world, this time in the form of the swastika.

It has always been my impression that however grim a fantasy world is constructed, it will never come even close to the horrors of the real world with regard to appalling stupidity, cruelty, and evil. This particular case proves that assumption.

Offline Shadowwolf

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2007, 04:22:39 PM »

I'm pretty sure that these "thou shalt nots" do not constitute the eightfold path as exposited by Buddha Guatama, but are an expansion of the Five Precepts of the fourth step, "Right Conduct".
Hmmm.. this is what they said on Wikipedia, but I agree, it's not the original eightfold way.

I found the original chaos symbol, from physics, at wiki as well. However, this one is assymmetrical.


Shadowwolf
On the right only red, to your left all is white
Ev'ryone's holding, stay in the fight!
White to the right side, left only red
Run like the others, or you'll end up dead!
Talabheim State Troop proverb
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Offline Racticas

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2007, 11:22:50 PM »
It has always been my impression that however grim a fantasy world is constructed, it will never come even close to the horrors of the real world with regard to appalling stupidity, cruelty, and evil. This particular case proves that assumption.

Indeed.  But the iconic parallel is still interesting, if unintentional (as observed, the chaos symbol predates "Chaos" in the Warhammer sense).
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Offline Gneisenau

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 12:08:43 AM »
Hm, actually I remember that back in time (4th edition, I think), there was a shield emblem for chaos warriors that looked more like the physics symbol shadowwolf posted than the regular "wheel".

That would warrant the assumption that the physics symbol was the original inspiration, not the symbol of buddhism. Why did they change it? Perhaps because it looks more "gothic" that way and less mathematic?

Offline Racticas

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 12:54:38 AM »
Hm, actually I remember that back in time (4th edition, I think), there was a shield emblem for chaos warriors that looked more like the physics symbol shadowwolf posted than the regular "wheel".

That would warrant the assumption that the physics symbol was the original inspiration, not the symbol of buddhism. Why did they change it? Perhaps because it looks more "gothic" that way and less mathematic?

I expect that the classic 8-pointed star of Chaos-- which is also used in Chaos Magic, I think (I hesitate to justify Aleister Crowley's pretentiousness by adding the "k")-- was probably a little awkward-looking and evolved over time for aesthetic reasons as much as any other.  As you put it well, "it looks more gothic".  As far as the older chaos star being 8-pointed, I thought that that was based on the cardinal directions-- just some kind of "crazy arrows going everywhere" thing.

I seem to recall some WH Chaos stuff in the '80's having shorter diagonal lines and longer vert/horizontal lines, but I can't remember where I got that.  Maybe I was getting it mixed up with the upgraded Hisha's movement in Shogi...
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Offline Mike Dillon

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 05:28:51 PM »
I think that the Chaos symbol used in Warhammer is more likely a rip-off of Moorcock's Elric Saga than Buddhism.  IIRC, the symbol for Law in Moorcock is a single strait arrow (representing the "one way" of law) while the symbol for Chaos was 8 arrows moving outward from a single source (representing the "unlimited choices" of chaos).  The outer wheel in Warhammer is more likely a concession to the fact that without it the arrowheads would be prone to getting snapped off and/or snagged on things - and then the art was made to match the models.

Offline FVC

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 11:36:47 AM »
Indeed, I understand it to be a Moorcock reference. Buddhism, after all, has nothing to do with Chaos in any regard other than that of the wheel. Of course, one should remember that despite that, Chaos in Warhammer is quite different to Moorcock's conception of Chaos metaphysically. In Warhammer, 'Chaos' is undoubtedly evil, and what you would consider an aberration (a cancer on the natural order, so to speak) instead of a natural part of the cosmos. Moorcock had the two extremes of Law and Chaos as both amoral and both, to an extent, necessary.

Offline Shadowwolf

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 07:12:16 AM »
I did a little look around on the subject again and this is what I found.
Here is a pagan sun wheel in the temple at Kararak India, which is associated with occultism and astrology. It resembles a chariot wheel doesn't it? Or maybe the GW symbol of Chaos  :icon_surprised:

When Israel apostatized, they made chariots dedicated to the sun god, who it was thought, traveled across the sky in a great chariot. Hence the origin of the sun wheel.


And I have to agree with FVC and Mike. The GW chaos symbol resembles much to the Moorcock version. Anyone who is not familiar with Moorcock may want to have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

Moorcock says [1] —
Quote
The origin of the Chaos Symbol was me doodling sitting at the kitchen table and wondering what to tell Jim Cawthorn the arms of Chaos looked like. I drew a straightforward geographical quadrant (which often has arrows, too!) – N, S, E, W – and then added another four directions and that was that – eight arrows representing all possibilities, one arrow representing the single, certain road of Law. I have since been told to my face that it is an "ancient symbol of Chaos" and if it is then it confirms a lot of theories about the race mind. … As far as I know the symbol, drawn by Jim Cawthorn, first appeared on an Elric cover of Science Fantasy in 1962, then later appeared in his first comic version of Stormbringer done by Savoy.

In addition, The wikipedia claims the following:

The symbol's first appearance in a commercial role-playing game (RPG) was in TSR's Dungeons & Dragons supplement, Deities & Demigods (1980) which included the gods, monsters, and heroes from Moorcock's Elric books as one of 17 mythological and fictional "pantheons". (Copyright problems lead to its omission from later editions.)

It then turned up quite naturally in Chaosium's Stormbringer RPG (one edition of which was published as Elric!) (1980-2003). The 1987 edition of Stormbringer was published jointly by Chaosium in the U.S. and Games Workshop (GW) in the UK.

Moorcock's eight-arrow symbol of Chaos was subsequently arrogated by GW and became a frequent graphic element in their own Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games and the related miniature figures (e.g., Knights of Chaos).

A slightly modified version can been seen as orcish tattoos on Chris Metzen's Warcraft art. Most noticeably on the character Grom Hellscream.

The Heretic and HeXen series of video games feature the symmetrical version of the symbol on the Chaos Device item, which teleports the player back to the beginning of the level.

The symbol was also the logo for Chessex, a games distributor now part of Diamond Comic Distributors.

At least thet's what I've found out...
There may still be a few secret buddhism-chaos-wargames sects that need sorting out. Please continue speculation!
Cheers on you all!

Shadowwolf
On the right only red, to your left all is white
Ev'ryone's holding, stay in the fight!
White to the right side, left only red
Run like the others, or you'll end up dead!
Talabheim State Troop proverb
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Offline Gorthac

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2007, 07:49:10 PM »
Incidentally, I just took a pic of one of my old chaos knights I painted a decade ago to show you guys how crappy painting I did, and well..look at it yourself! (took the pic few days ago and now stumbled on this topic and then remembered the picture :P)



Shows the asymmetric symbol Gneisenau mentioned :)
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Offline Rosencrantz

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2007, 08:02:24 PM »
Two points

One - The parallel is purely an accidental one. The fluff is suffiently developed to remove any blatant "rip-offs" as people call them. It so happens that there are eight winds of magic, and that the arrow tends to be associated with Chaos

Two - I think people forget why Chaos is called Chaos. Chaos obeys no natural law or order. This is it's purest form. The evil of Chaos is essentially the anarchy of natural laws of physics breaking down. This means that the worshippers of Choas can take almost any symbol for thier cult, any incantations, any rituals. Chaos worship follows Chaotic theory

Rosencrantz  :mellow:
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 07:30:25 PM by Rosencrantz »
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Offline Rufas the Eccentric

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2007, 08:56:21 PM »
Herr Rosencrantz. 

The Imperial Inquisition will be conducting an initial inquiry regarding allegations of Thredomancy and the display of far too much knowledge in the workings of Chaos.  I would not be too worried.  The Inquisition is well known for being utterly fair a scrupulous in it's treatment of victims, er, suspects.

The purchase of an indulgence or two would not hurt.

Of course, you could blame everything on Guilderstein.  It probably will not save you, but at least you will have company in the bonfire.
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Offline Rosencrantz

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2007, 07:33:02 PM »
Rufas, also known as fairly eccentric, Herr Rosencrantz is pleased to note that the arms of the Imperial Inquisition stretches to the boundaries of the Empire. If I remember correctly Tobaro is still a free state ... strange people, bad pasta but few bonfires. Hurrah!

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Offline Wyzer1

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2007, 02:47:58 AM »
Herr Rosencrantz is pleased to note that the arms of the Imperial Inquisition stretches to the boundaries of the Empire.
right...

thats what George the Glutton thought... until we tracked him down all the way into Cathay, brought him back and made a bonfire...
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2007, 08:39:37 AM »
One had to stand back from that particular bonfire ...........

...... there was hot fat spitting everywhere.  :engel:
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Offline iggy666

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 04:04:59 PM »
Hello everyone,

I would like to clear this up for you. I believe, being a lover of Chaos and having recently been introduced to Buddhism, Chaos is an inverted form of Buddhism. It is Buddhism backwards. If Chaos is black, Buddhism is white.

Let me explain...

In Buddhism, the human mind (and all other minds) suffer from 3 "poisons" or defilements. Those 3 are craving/desire/greed, hatred/aversion, and delusion/ignorance. Each of these defilements are portrayed in the form of the 3 Chaos Gods. Slaanesh for desire; Khorne for hatred; Tzeentch for delusion. Nurgle is, in fact, the Buddha. Nurgle appears to be the complete opposite of the Buddha, and he even is usually seen sitting in a meditation-like posture. Nurgle's appearance (physical, mental, all aspects of who he appears to be) is an illusion of Tzeentch. Because Tzeentch's delusions is so intwined with our minds, we cannot perceive Nurgle as he truly is, and instead, he appears to be an evil being. But, it is in fact said that Nurgle loves all life, from the tiniest microscopic bacterium to any other larger creature.

Nurgle is the God of Death, Decay, and Despair.

The Buddha teaches that there are 5 things which none can escape: Illness, Aging, Death, separation from loved ones, and being the owner and heir of your karma. The last one does not translate to Chaos. But, Illness, Aging, Death, and separation are perfect translations to Nurgle's domains. Illness = disease and sickness, Aging = decay, Death = Death. Separation is despair.

In Buddhism, the absolute worst offense one can commit is to kill, worse than that, is to kill out of hatred or anger. Killing out of hatred is worse than killing out of greed or jealousy. This is why Khorne is the most powerful of all the Chaos Gods. To kill out of hatred is the most powerful evil.

Chaos, as a religion, is the complete opposite of Buddhism. In so, so, so many ways, I've seen so many parallels. I've been obsessed with Chaos ever since I was introduced to it years ago. And, for 6 months now I have been studying Buddhism (very rapidly and with great enthusiasm) and I have seen that they are so incredibly similar in their invertedness.

A big idea in Buddhism is the idea of impermanence. Constant and everlasting change. The whole cosmos is subject to change, and, ironically, change is the only constant in the universe. This brings in to mind the power Tzeentch holds over the realm of existence, and, again, the idea that the only power that overcomes this change, truly understands it and sees it as it really is, is through Buddhism, Nurgle. Nurgle is the opposite of Tzeentch; Nurgle is stagnant, unchanging, and permanent. Nurgle is the truth, the Dhamma (truth of reality in Buddhism), seen through the deluded eyes of Tzeentch.

And, just FYI, the symbol of Buddhism, the 8 spoked wheel... has nothing to do with the 5 precepts, or the 8 monastery precepts, as you explained earlier. The 8 spoked wheel of Dhamma is in reference to the Buddha's teaching, the core of Buddhism, the Noble Eightfold Path. The Noble Eightfold Path incorporates 8 steps that must be taken both simultaneously and subsequently in order to reach Awakening.

The 8 pointed Star of Chaos is very similar. I've looked into the meaning behind that symbol vastly, and have come with a few conclusions. The one I believe is the most substantial is that the Star of Chaos is, in fact, the cosmos or the universe. In latin, Khaos means cosmos. The symbol for Khaos, I believe, is the 8 arrows shooting from within the circle. This "star of Chaos," in fact, is both spinning (like a wheel) AND expanding outward. It is a metaphor for the universe, as it spins and expands outwards through space-time.

Thank you, I hope this was helpful.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2016, 07:35:44 PM »
I guess, Buddhism regards threadomancy as more of a reincarnation of threads...
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2016, 11:33:56 PM »
Just realised: this must break the previous record...
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline iggy666

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2016, 01:43:30 PM »
I guess, Buddhism regards threadomancy as more of a reincarnation of threads...

lmao. Yeah, I don't use this forum. I had just stumbled upon this thread and, after reading it, felt that you guys only drifted further from a real answer. I was hoping to help the OP, if he's still active.

Offline Karl Voss of Averland

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2016, 02:10:21 PM »
Fun fact: this thread was started before the iPhone was invented, and George W Bush was still the President of the United States.
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Offline Midaski

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Re: Chaos Buddhism
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2016, 02:32:20 PM »

.......... and before the first Eurobash ...................... where chaotic Buddists were very evident   :engel:
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