Author Topic: Hammer of Sigmar on an Engineer with the Helblaster (or Pigeons) (Read 22271 times)

Warlord · « **on:** May 14, 2007, 02:29:04 AM »

Whats the final diagnosis? Can it be done? Has anyone tried it? What did your opponent say? A few people have mentioned it as an idea in passing, but not many have put their opinions on the legality (or fluffality) of it...

Here is an older thread that makes a few points, but kinda goes OT. What do you think?

Mike Chung · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2007, 03:10:17 AM »

I personally think its a no go from a rules perspective. The actual model doing the firing is the Helblaster, not the Engineer.

Ganymede · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:13:29 AM »

In much the same way that a rune of luck on a Dwarf Engineer won't allow him to reroll the shot of his bolt thrower, the prayer on an Imperial Engineer will not allow him to reroll the shot of a hellblaster.

angryman · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:43:05 AM »

The Engineers BS is used to hit with the helblaster, so he is shooting the helblaster. Therefore it can be re-rolled, just as the handgunners black-powder weapon can be re-rolled. It makes just as much sense fluff wise.

Warlord · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:00:10 AM »

Personally, I think he can reroll it. He joins the machine to actually fire it - hence why you use his ballistic skill.

Just because the machine is bigger than a handgun or HLR, why does it mean he cannot reroll rolls to hit?

What if the crew are all dead, and he is the only one crewing it...

Ganymede · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:30:58 AM »

This is from the Dwarf FAQ

Q. May a Master Engineer with the Rune of Luck use
the rune to re-roll a to hit roll for a Bolt Thrower he is
acting as an Artillery Master for? Also, may a Master
Engineer with the Rune of Luck use the rune to re-roll
a to wound roll for a Bolt Thrower, Cannon, or Grudge
Thrower he is acting as an Artillery Master for?
A. No.

Here, despite the fact that one could reasonably assume that since his BS is being used, he is the one firing the machine. But, as this response shows, the bolt thrower shot does not count as one of his own missile attacks.

The situation is exactly the same with the imperial engineer.

Warlord · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:43:01 AM »

I am at work at the moment - does a rune of luck allow reroll of other missile weapons?

I understand your argument, but what if he is the only crew left, or is it assumed that this does not make a difference?

What about re-rolling a Pigeon?

Could it be used to reroll to hit, or would it be reroll to hit partials under the template? Or does it have no use, because the pigeons are the ones hitting, not the engineer.

Wyzer1 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:48:00 PM »

Id say yes, mainly because it is MAGIC that is allowing the re-roll, therefore it is basically imbuing him with good-aiming skills and makes him shoot better, irregardless of what he is firing. Heck, Id extend it to pigeons because it imbues the pigeon with faith! er... uh... ya...

When magic is involved, realism kinda doesn't matter too aweful much

Ganymede · « **Reply #8 on:** May 14, 2007, 06:03:11 PM »

Quote from: Wyzer1 on May 14, 2007, 05:48:00 PM

When magic is involved, realism kinda doesn't matter too aweful much

Granted, realism is not a solid basline to judge things in a fantasy game, but how do you respond to the relevent FAQ snippet posted above? The situations are Identical.

Wyzer1 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2007, 06:08:26 PM »

Because dwarf engineers are already over-powered and ours suck

EDIT:
And because its easier to guide bullets than bolts... (Trust me, it just is)

Warlord · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2007, 12:01:39 PM »

Quote from: Warlord on May 14, 2007, 05:43:01 AM

What about re-rolling a Pigeon?

Could it be used to reroll to hit, or would it be reroll to hit partials under the template? Or does it have no use, because the pigeons are the ones hitting, not the engineer.

I think it can only be used to reroll hits on the template. However I don't think it can for a Mortar...

Do you think because the war machine is represented as a different model is why most think we can't reroll, but a smaller weapon such as gun we can?

Mike Chung · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2007, 09:41:12 PM »

The issue comes down to the model. A hochland or a handgun is part of the model firing it. The Helblaster, its crew, and whoever joins them consists of a group of models forming a unit.

charles lapointe · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2007, 12:00:28 AM »

I would agree that he CANNOT reroll hits with the Helblaster. He's pointing and yelling and kicking gunners to improve the GUNS accuracy.( its a separate model.) the pigeon bomb does not in fact roll to hit. there is a table you are rolling on.

The main reason I believe it illegal(aside from dwars also not being able to do it.) is that it WAAAAAAAAYYYY overpowers that combo. which smacks of not right.

Just say no. play nice, and have fun.

angryman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2007, 12:53:11 AM »

Quote from: charles lapointe on May 16, 2007, 12:00:28 AM

The main reason I believe it illegal(aside from dwars also not being able to do it.) is that it WAAAAAAAAYYYY overpowers that combo. which smacks of not right.

It is a powerful combo but not compared to combo's most armies can put together.

Quote from: charles lapointe on May 16, 2007, 12:00:28 AM

I would agree that he CANNOT reroll hits with the Helblaster. He's pointing and yelling and kicking gunners to improve the GUNS accuracy.( its a separate model.)

Not true, to use his BS he "replaces a crew member", thus is working the machine. So why can't he have a stroke of divine intervention that makes him go "wait i'll just tweak here, here and here"

mlepkows · « **Reply #14 on:** May 16, 2007, 08:15:52 AM »

It's pretty obvious that the Helblaster doesn't benefit from re-rolls of one of it's crewmen. Helblaster is a unit. In which way a spell allowing an Engineer to re-roll HIS missed shoots can affect a unit he has joined? The Dwarf FAQ clears the matter even more. Thesis stating that since the shoots are resolved at his BS then it's him doing all the shooting is rather absurd. Perheaps if he was the last crewman left...

Maciek

Volkbane · « **Reply #15 on:** May 16, 2007, 10:12:59 PM »

I think it is a grey zone, and I also think that taking advantage of it in light of the Dwarf clarification is pretty shady. I'm guessing that it's an oversight on GW's part, and that they don't intend for it to be possible.

That being said, if GW says officially that we can, I will do it every time and just take it as a good combo like many other races have in this game.

Skyros · « **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2007, 10:38:27 PM »

The engineer is firing the helblaster, which is why it is his BS used to determine if the weapon hits or not: The engineer is the one aiming it.

If there is a miss, it is because the engineer aimed the gun poorly. Therefore, a magic spell allowing you to re-roll missed attacks would logically work on the helblaster.

Of course, GW does not have a very good track record with organizing rules logically. The dwarf situation, which parallels this one, seems to indicate you cannot in fact do that.

I actually perfer it this way, as otherwise the empire engineer just might be worth taking every now and then. Maybe.

Warlord · « **Reply #17 on:** May 16, 2007, 11:11:43 PM »

Quote from: Skyros on May 16, 2007, 10:38:27 PM

otherwise the empire engineer just might be worth taking every now and then. Maybe.

oh no, we cant have that.

Gorthac · « **Reply #18 on:** May 17, 2007, 06:28:40 AM »

I can imagine the engineer standing next to the crew that does the actual firing, slapping the backs of their heads saying things like "NOT LIKE THAT YOU M*RON, AIM LOWER! *smack*" or "I betcha this baby blows up real nice eh? *sips ale*"

Ofc this clearly indicates the truth of how the Helblaster uses the Engineers BS. I do however find it ridiculous and completely absurd that you wouldn't be able to use Hammer of Sigmar and reroll the hits with helblaster if it was crewed by the Engineer. MY GOD, that would almost make Engineer AND Helblaster viable choices for army in 7th edition. Oh no, we can't have that, therefore it isn't possible (plausible logic

).

Either way, not like Hammer of Sigmar is overpowered in any case, you need to throw 4+ to dispel it? Please.

Mike Chung · « **Reply #19 on:** May 17, 2007, 04:59:42 PM »

The issue is not what it should be it is what the rules say it is.

The rules say the hammer can be applied to any character or champion and that model (not unit or any other variation) may re-roll failed to hit and to wound rolls. Its the Helblaster doing the firing with the Helblaster and crew forming a unit.

Just as troops who have characters in them may use superior statistics for tests, so can the Helblaster use the super BS for hitting opponents. But the spell remains on the Engineer, not on the Helblaster model itself.

Guvnor · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2007, 12:12:27 PM »

And the spell applies to his attacks. If he is using the helblaster, it is his attacks- like any other shooting weapon.

Ganymede · « **Reply #21 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:31:49 PM »

And yet again, I am forced to point out the FAQ answer I posted earlier. The people who made this game disagree with you.

Dendo Star · « **Reply #22 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:44:46 PM »

Quote from: Ganymede on May 18, 2007, 04:31:49 PM

And yet again, I am forced to point out the FAQ answer I posted earlier. The people who made this game disagree with you.

I do not recall this situation covered in the FAQ at all.

Could you please post actual passages?

Wyzer1 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 18, 2007, 04:51:31 PM »

Hes refering to the similiarity posted above regarding the dwarf and his bolt thrower

Dendo Star · « **Reply #24 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:25:14 PM »

Now wait, is that from the Dwarf FAQ or the 7th Edition FAQ?

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Author Topic: Hammer of Sigmar on an Engineer with the Helblaster (or Pigeons) (Read 22271 times)