Topic: Dwarf's first try at Cavalry

[Garan]

I have been playing Warhammer for about 5 months now and have a substantial Dwarven army, however lately I have been getting a bit board as most Dwarven lists tend to turtle in a corner and shoot the poop out of the enemy and then grind what is left when it gets to them.... Well ok it might not sound that bad to you but after doing that and only that every game for 5 months you would want a bit of variety too!

In my quest for a more proactive army (I don't mean one with better hair) I decided to go all out cavalry with the empire. The only limitation I set for myself was that every unit had to be extremely mobile and that it had to be a 2000 pt all comers list, as I do not have the money to spend on more then one list.

What follows is a Dwarf's attempt at running fast; you are all invited to give constructive criticism but god help you if you poke fun. Remember we Dwarfs hold quite a grudge.

(This list was made while I was looking at a friend's book, as I don’t have one of my own yet.)


Steam Tank - 300pts

Steam Tank - 300pts

Pistoliers (5) - 90pts
               
              Battle Wizard lvl 2 - 114pts
                                        Warhorse, barded *Wizard's Staff (10 pts), Doom Fire Ring (30pts)

Outriders (5) - 105

Knightly Order (5) - 115

              Templar Grand Master - 145
                                        Lance & Shield *Laurels of Victory (55pts)

Knightly Order (5) - 115

Inner Circle Knightly Order (5) - 130

              War Priest - 110
                                        Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse, Barded *The item that switches stat lines with the enemy hero

Inner Circle Knightly Order (5) - 130
             
              War Priest - 110
                                        Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse, Barded *The cauldron that steals enemy spells

Total = 1764 (without any magic items)


As you see I have about 230 point to mess around as far as magic items, the idea is to not put too much on any one hero making every unit expandable. The pistoliers with the mage are War Machine hunters, theoretically able to hit 3 separate targets in one turn (pistoliers, Wiz Magic, Magic Item). The Outriders help with War Machines and just thin out the larger units or flat out kill the small ones. The 4 units of Knights ether try to flank/rear charge the enemy or set up the charges for the Tanks. The Tanks serve as the hammer of the army, but are also able to be the anvil if necessary.

I am mainly looking for help from anyone who has tried a similar list before to determine the survivability of the list and also any and all help on magic item selection.

Oh and seeing as to how I play Dwarfs I have never used magic before... what Lore should I take for a list like this?


Thank you for the help,
Garan

[Wyzer1]

Couple issues:
1.) You only have 2 core choices
2.) You have the points values wrong on both the Warrior Priests and the Inner Circle Knight Squads (in the wrong direction, down)
3.) Some of the other more senior members will elaborate this one for me, but you have 2 steam tanks in your army...

Id heavily consider taking only a single steam tank... Personally in a list like this, I would also recomend dropping the outriders in favor of pistoliers... shouldn't be a problem because they come in the same box (unless you have already built them)

Your also short on model count... Perhaps:

Drop (1) Stank (+300), drop outriders for pistoliers (+15), fix points costs (-.. about 75 pts), you already need (230)
And take more knights (At least 1 more each for the IC knights)

That should give you a better model count to, at least 15 more knights

Anyways, im sure someone else has some advice for ya

[Garan]

Thank you for the reply Wyzer1,

1.) You only have 2 core choices

You got me there; I need to add one more unit of 5 basic Knights for 115 points.

2.) You have the points values wrong on both the Warrior Priests and the Inner Circle Knight Squads (in the wrong direction, down)

I thought the IC Knights were 26 per model? The Warrior Priests are 90pts base with 4pts for heavy armor, 2 pts for shields, 10pts for warhorses, and another 4pts for being barded. Comes out to 110 when I do the math... where am I going wrong?

3.) Some of the other more senior members will elaborate this one for me, but you have 2 steam tanks in your army...

Here I must admit, having never played Empire at all, I do not know what I am talking about. That being said I feel that having 2 Tanks allows me more flexibility in choosing targets as well as the ability to double up my tanks if I’m presented with a large unit of extremely resilient troops. (Black Orcs come to mind) Also I feel like I will not be able to replace the punching power of the Tank by taking the same points in Knights.

I would also recomend dropping the outriders in favor of pistoliers... shouldn't be a problem because they come in the same box (unless you have already built them)

I was already considering this option so I might very well take this advice… the only hesitation here is that I will loose the range provided by the Outriders.

I will get together the revised list in a few,
Garan

[Garan]

Revised List:



Steam Tank - 300pts

Steam Tank - 300pts

Pistoliers (5) - 90pts
               
              Battle Wizard lvl 2 - 110pts
                                        Warhorse *Wizard's Staff (10 pts), Doom Fire Ring (30pts)

Pistoliers (5) - 90

Knightly Order (5) - 115

              Templar Grand Master - 145
                                        Lance & Shield *Laurels of Victory (55pts)

Knightly Order (5) - 115

Knightly Order (5) - 115

Inner Circle Knightly Order (5) - 130

              War Priest - 110
                                        Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse, Barded *Van Horstmann's Speculum (30pts)

Inner Circle Knightly Order (5) - 130
             
              War Priest - 110
                                        Heavy Armor, Shield, Warhorse, Barded *Aldred's Casket of Sorcery (35pts)

Total = 1860 (without any magic items)

[dabber]

That being said I feel that having 2 Tanks allows me more flexibility in choosing targets as well as the ability to double up my tanks if I’m presented with a large unit of extremely resilient troops. (Black Orcs come to mind)

Black Orcs are not resilient against a STANK.  If a STANK charges an infantry unit at full speed, its likely the unit will die.  Doesn't matter what.  6d3 impact hits kills 10 of most things on average, 8.3 things with 3+ saves.  Dwarf Ironbreakers should do minutely better (only 7 die), but still lose.

The reason to avoid 2 STANKs is the cheese factor.  Its impact varies hugely with your opponent's army and any little bad luck early.  STANKs weaken to artillery and strong fast characters and slaughter just about anything else.  Face Dwarfs and your STANKs will probably do nothing.  Face Elves and you'll be golden.

[Garan]

Thank you for the criticism dabber,

The environment I play in tends to be a very competitive one hence most of my opponents are cheese connoisseurs and I do not feel bad in the slightest taking 2 STanks in my list, but I will note the fact that in more friendly games I should probably drop down to one.

I would still like some input on magic item selections as well as some insight into Magic Lore choices.

Hoping I did not waist $250 on a weak list,
Garan

[dabber]

Hoping I did not waist $250 on a weak list

Good gods no!

I would give your knights banners.  At least one unit should have a banner and you should have the war banner.  Perhaps steel standard also.
I don't think the wizard's staff is very useful and I would really like to see at least one scroll.

[Garan]

Banners...

Well I almost expect at least half the Knights to die from shooting or just being sacrificed during battle and I would really hate giving up 100 VP every time that happens only to gain 1 CR in a fight, I think I would sooner give my Pistoliers musicians. It really all depends on if I decide to make them magic banners and what I would put on them I guess.

To be honest I will only be picking up the Empire book and the first half of the army today (the rest is being shipped as I type this) so I just do not know what banners I have available. Still unless its something really cheap and helpful against shooting or magic I do not see myself taking it... a 40 or 50 pt banner to protect a 115 - 130pt unit just does not seem like the way to go from where I'm standing.

On the topic of scrolls I must agree with you, I know that this army needs some more magic protection, I just do not know exactly how much of it I will be able to afford.


- Garan

[Wyzer1]

2.) You have the points values wrong on both the Warrior Priests and the Inner Circle Knight Squads (in the wrong direction, down)

I thought the IC Knights were 26 per model? The Warrior Priests are 90pts base with 4pts for heavy armor, 2 pts for shields, 10pts for warhorses, and another 4pts for being barded. Comes out to 110 when I do the math... where am I going wrong?

I was talking about the magic items being added on, I missed that you had them as options (or something)

I might have the IC thing wrong, sorry

If everyone plays competitivly, then 2-stanks away! I still would rather have more knights in 2k pts, for a little more flexability, but its up to you. It only takes a few bolt-shots and cannons to really put the hurt on the stanks.

It has the look of a cheesy army, but if you stick 3-5 wounds on a stank the Empire player will start to suffer from bad rolls and won't get to actually use it. You really wont have much backup in the form of knights to, because of lack of numbers

Black Orcs are not resilient against a STANK.  If a STANK charges an infantry unit at full speed, its likely the unit will die.  Doesn't matter what.  6d6 impact hits kills 10 of most things on average, 8.3 things with 3+ saves.  Dwarf Ironbreakers should do minutely better (only 7 die), but still lose.

I thought Steam Tanks impact hits were D3... Would someone check that, I dont have my codex handy

Anyways, my 2 cents... good luck

[dabber]

I thought Steam Tanks impact hits were D3... Would someone check that, I dont have my codex handy

Whoops, fixed my post.  Did the math for the totals right, just wrote "6d6" mistakenly.

[Garan]

Well I finally put all my models together and had my first game today. The following is the list I used:

CORE

Knightly Order (5) - 115

Knightly Order (5) - 115

Knightly Order (5) - 123 (with musician)

SPECIAL

Inner Circle Knightly Order (5) - 130

Inner Circle Knightly Order (5) - 130

Pistoliers (5) - 97 (with musician)

Pistoliers (5) - 97 (with musician)

RARE

Steam Tank - 300

Steam Tank - 300


LORD

Arch Lector -   125
war altar         100
heavy armor       6
shield                3
van horstmann  30
TOTAL           264

HEROES

War Priest -      90
heavy armor       4
shield                2
warhorse          10
barding              4
TOTAL            110

War Priest -      90
heavy armor       4
shield                2
warhorse          10
barding              4
TOTAL            110

Battle Wizard -  65
warhorse          10
barding              4
rod of power     30
TOTAL           109
                                     
ARMY TOTAL = 2000


The game was one sided as my opponent (orcs & goblins) did not play a very competitive list. By the top of turn 3 (I went first) I had lost one Warrior Priest to a killing blow in a challenge and my opponent did not have a single model on the table. The first turn was probably the most interesting as I had to be very careful with the positioning of my units. The level of strategy required was unlike anything I have experienced with my Dwarfs. Even though I had plenty of hitting power the Orcs still had an ample amount of units that could charge farther then me with their 2 chariots (pulled by wolves), a giant, a unit of 3 trolls with a hero, a small unit of spider riders, as well as 3 larger units of wolf riders.

That being said I did get the charge of with every one of my units by baiting with my pistoliers and a unit of nilla knights. After combat started it was all over as I only lost combat once, charging a big block of black orcs with a hero with a unit of IC knights (that is when I lost my WP) but I rolled a 4 on my leadership test and stood my ground. The fact that my WP died actually worked in my favor as it allowed my Stank to see the unit in combat and get a charge off (11 orcs dead / IC knights chase down the remaining cowards that run after failing to roll snake eyes on leadership at end of combat.)

My biggest disappointment with the list was probably the way magic worked out. Defensively I was untouchable with 9 DD. However offensively I was hoping that I would be considerably more potent. I think the main reason for this was the fact that my WAlter never got into combat since it was considerably slower then the rest of my army (and I was afraid of it being charged so i held it back a bit. I did get off one soulfire and that spell that brings the enemy WS to a 1 though so it was ok I guess. I think had the WAlter gotten into the fray my magic phase would have been a lot more fun.

Thanks for reading,
Garan
 

[Wyzer1]

Nice to hear you stomped out some orcs, but I would tone the list down a little bit...

Sorry to say, but you were burnt at the stake... http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=17577.msg201718#msg201718  mmm, toasty

[Garan]

Wyzer1:

Hehehe well no hard feelings, all great minds were missunderstood in their time, and anyhow why is saying Stank ok if saying Waltar is not?

As far as the list goes I am going to play a few more games with it before I make any drastic changes, but if games continue to be this one sided I am thinking of dropping both steam tanks in favor of 2 giants thus saving 200 points.

Would that still be too powerfull?
Garan

[Rufas the Eccentric]

No you're only under consideration for stake burning.   Buy the Indulgences while you have a chance.

List looks interesting.  If you could scrape the points I would try to get a musician in each unit.

[Wyzer1]

Wyzer1:

Hehehe well no hard feelings, all great minds were missunderstood in their time, and anyhow why is saying Stank ok if saying Waltar is not?

Ah, saying Waltar is OK. Saying, ... "Walter" is unacceptable (because its War Altar, not War Alter)

Its more of a meaningless personal crusade TBH...

And Stank was around before my time

EDIT: Oh ya, your second half your post. 2x Steam Tanks for two giants? Not much of a drop... but whatev. Next game you play, ask your opponent if he had fun

[Garan]

EDIT: Oh ya, your second half your post. 2x Steam Tanks for two giants? Not much of a drop... but whatev. Next game you play, ask your opponent if he had fun

Well I don’t know then, should I drop the Stanks and not take any rare choices at all? I will not take any war machines or troops on foot as that does not fit with the theme of the army so what else am I left with if I choose not to take the Stanks?

I think there is some DoW cannon that is pulled by 2 horses but I do not know the rules for it so I do not know how well it fits in the list.

Any and all suggestions on how to make this list more fun for my opponents while still sticking to the army theme (fast, fast, fast) and not crippling me completely are welcome.

- Garan

[Wyzer1]

Why not drop (1) steam tank and take more knights? Or perhaps some DOW unit or something characterfull

That way your investment isn't wasted and you can simply add the 2nd stank at higher pts games and your list wont be quite as WAACy