Author Topic: The End is Nigh! & Hatred (Read 36434 times)

Rufas the Eccentric · « **on:** March 28, 2007, 02:11:19 PM »

In my battle against the Tomb Kings last week I was considering using "the end is nigh" rule in the second round of combat. The opponent insisted that the Flagellants would not get the benefit of hatred because it only effects the first round of combat. That's not the way I read the NEB but I didn't want the game to get bogged down.

How does everyone else interpret this?

Captain Tineal · « **Reply #1 on:** March 28, 2007, 02:19:01 PM »

It would be stupid for it not to work any time you used the rule... uhg I guess that means I better re-read that section to make sure.

Seriously though, I believe it does work any time you use the rule to martyr guys. It would make the rule useless unless you were charging.

Paul Collins · « **Reply #2 on:** March 28, 2007, 02:23:58 PM »

You know, I suspect that your opponent was right.
I wonder if that was the writers intention since it makes 1 martr pointless after the first round of combat. (What hatred would gain them after the first round of combat, Frenzy already does I think)

Albrecht Hexenjaeger · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2007, 04:00:58 PM »

Martyring Flagellants will indeed provide Hatred in subsequent rounds of combat, just like effects from the Screaming Bell or the like. The price you pay is killing your own troops...err, zealots.

Spam Monkey · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2007, 04:07:29 PM »

I agree the rule in ambiguis.
They should have eternal hatred when they maytr themselves.

Taladryel · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2007, 04:12:19 PM »

To me, the solution is simple - Hatred occurs as normal, counting the turn in which it is "granted" as the "first" round of combat.

I.e. if you fight for 3 rounds without it, then use TEIN to get it, you get the rerolls for one round, and then other Hatred rules (e.g. Must Pursue) for the duration of the combat.

Fluff justification is ridiculously simple. In the middle of a fight, one dude reminds the rest that THESE enemies are the ones they REALLY hate. Fervor ensues, but the adrenaline rush lasts only for so long.

Of course, under RAW the rule is ambigous and needs a FAQ.

Dendo Star · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:27:51 PM »

Quote from: Taladryel on March 28, 2007, 04:12:19 PM

To me, the solution is simple - Hatred occurs as normal, counting the turn in which it is "granted" as the "first" round of combat.

I.e. if you fight for 3 rounds without it, then use TEIN to get it, you get the rerolls for one round, and then other Hatred rules (e.g. Must Pursue) for the duration of the combat.

Fluff justification is ridiculously simple. In the middle of a fight, one dude reminds the rest that THESE enemies are the ones they REALLY hate. Fervor ensues, but the adrenaline rush lasts only for so long.

Of course, under RAW the rule is ambigous and needs a FAQ.

Exactley.

Ratarsed · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:42:55 PM »

I'm pretty sure this question has been raised for the Empire FAQ whenever it may be released.

Ratarsed

Ansel · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2007, 06:47:52 PM »

Page 54 Empire Army Book:

At the start of each round or close combat (their own and the enemy's), before any blows are struck, delcare if the unit is going to sacrifice some martyrs or not. If you decide to go for it, roll a D3 to see how many Flagellants grandly sacrifice themselves.

It goes on to explain how the ability is used, but it looks clear to me that this can be used in any close combat round. Especially so since in parenthesis it actually says "their own and the enemy's". The book also list that the effects last until the end of that close combat phase and are cumulative. I think this is a case where the army book rule supercedes the Big Rule Book. My personal opinion is that they should be able to use hatred in each individual round of close combat.

Beside, if you have a Flagellant unit that is minimum sized or lowin numbers, using this rule will negate the usual purpose for taking Flagellants-a tarpit! I would think an opponent would love to see that tarpit shrink each round without any help from his troops.

HoS · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:26:27 PM »

It seems pretty obvious that Flaggies can use hatred whenever they want, but the usefulness of this is limited, because of Weapon Skill 2. Unless you take a HUGE unit, I would not advise using it.

Hawillis · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:31:11 PM »

I am far from a rules god ok, but it did seem obvious to me that you DONT get hatred in the 2nd round of combat - the BRB clearly sates that and there is no rule which says other!

I have never used Flagellants but if I did, I would not use hatred after the first round of combat using the 'end is nigh'. Yes I knoe this makes the death of 1 Flagellants pointless but there you go!

Dendo Star · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:31:55 PM »

Yeah, sacrficing units in what is reputed to be a tarpitter is half the reason I'd not EVER take Flaggies.

Dendo Star · « **Reply #12 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:32:52 PM »

Quote from: Hawillis on March 28, 2007, 07:31:11 PM

I am far from a rules god ok, but it did seem obvious to me that you DONT get hatred in the 2nd round of combat - the BRB clearly sates that and there is no rule which says other!

I have never used Flagellants but if I did, I would not use hatred after the first round of combat using the 'end is nigh'. Yes I knoe this makes the death of 1 Flagellants pointless but there you go!

No, there would NOT be a special ability of a unit/character that could not be used.

HoS · « **Reply #13 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:36:35 PM »

Dear Hawillis:

The BRB clearly states that when an army book contradicts the BRB then the Army Book comes out on top. Otherwise High Elf Spearmen would fight in two ranks, Detachments still cause panic, and so on.

Captain Tineal · « **Reply #14 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:45:26 PM »

Quote from: Dendo Star on March 28, 2007, 07:31:55 PM

Yeah, sacrficing units in what is reputed to be a tarpitter is half the reason I'd not EVER take Flaggies.

Give them a whirl. When they charge, and you Martyr, the hatred easily counters the low weapon skill, and if you kill 2 of your guys, you also get to reroll S5 attacks... they are an absolute lawn mower!

I had decided they suck too until I had some extra points in a list and thought I'd give them a try.

I will be including them in most of my lists.

Dendo Star · « **Reply #15 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:47:55 PM »

The other half is fluff.

I just can't abide by having ( and condoning! ) a big unit of crazy "cutters" if you're familiar with the term.

mrpineapple · « **Reply #16 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:53:16 PM »

you've got to bear in mind that on WS2, you are still hitting most units on 4s, hatred is more usefull with low Ws units than high Ws units, you get more re-rolls.

Captain Tineal · « **Reply #17 on:** March 28, 2007, 07:55:43 PM »

I think the Frenzy makes them more fluffy... they aren't there to take orders, they are there as a mob of unruly rabble.

Hawillis · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:04:41 PM »

Sure I understand about the army books taking dominance but this is my argument:

The rulebook says that hatred allows rolls to hit to be re-rolled in the FIRST turn of combat. The fact that they have hatred is subsequent rounds of comabt is meaningless for troops with hatred ad i believe that it is the same for Flagellants.

Besides that, i wuld not sacrifice men after the 1st round of combat - thats when your flails work and make you able to kill stuff.

Sure for the death of 2 you might get some re-rolls, but I dont think enough wounds will e caused to counteract those 2 that died.

I will eagerly awate the FAQ however to see how GW views this matter.

Dendo Star · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:09:11 PM »

So you're saying they have an ability that has no effect.

Hawillis · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:09:56 PM »

Potentially yes. Afterall, don foret you are losing a toughness 3 dude with no armour. Add in WS2 and they are all marked men lol.

HoS · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:39:50 PM »

If you understand about the Army book taking dominance then you understand that you are wrong. Quite frankly the wording of the NEB is such that it flat-out contradicts the BRB.

Lord Artemis · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:46:10 PM »

This really isn't a hard concept. Its really not. And the fact that people have a problem with it or misinterpret it is strange to me.

You can sacrifice a RANDOM number of martyrs for that close combat round before anyone swings. So you roll a D3 and thats how many flagellants kill themselves. Then, you look on the list of effects, and apply all the special rules to that unit temporarily. After all the blows have been struck, they lose those abilities.

Wow...that was hard.

Its obvioulsy better on the charge when their flails get the bonus, if you roll to have the fortune of having 3 of your men martyr themselves...you have a unit that can dish out a helluva alot of damage (2 Str5 attacks apiece, reroll to hit, reroll to wound, and +1CR).

Ouchies

Rufas the Eccentric · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2007, 08:56:24 PM »

Quote from: Hawillis on March 28, 2007, 07:31:11 PM

I am far from a rules god ok, but it did seem obvious to me that you DONT get hatred in the 2nd round of combat - the BRB clearly sates that and there is no rule which says other!

I now have the NEB here. It says:

Quote

Each martyr's death deeper into their madness and has the game effects listed below. These effects last until the end of the close combat phase and are cumlative. So if three martyr's are sacrificed, all three effects apply!

It seems to me that this is a special rule that trumps the general hatred rule. Normally, Hatred is is trigered by a deep seated racial animosity. It makes sense that the Hatred would be spent in the initial round of combat. For our beloved flagellants, it is the act of martydom that initiates the hatred. "Kenny! Oh my Sigmar, they killed Kenny! You Bastards!"

redjoey · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2007, 09:00:16 PM »

Up until reading this post I automatically assumed that hatred would aply to the turn it was rolled on as did my opponents. I still have this opinion.

Why would a rule be in if 1/3 of the time you could not use it unless it was the first turn?

Empire book says
'These effects lest until the end of that combat phase'

Why would a rule say this unless the rule was valid for that turn?

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Author Topic: The End is Nigh! & Hatred (Read 36434 times)