Author Topic: Pikemen! (Read 27579 times)

tixed · « **on:** March 17, 2007, 04:31:48 PM »

I'd like to use deadly combination of Warrior Priest in the unit of hired pikemen. I don't care for the rare slot they occupy, but where I can get the rules for them (armybuilder isn't an authority for some players)? And what models I can use? There are no 'plain' pikemen in the store section on the GW site(s), only with some characters, but I can't field the same character twice, so as his unit.

Lord Artemis · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2007, 04:42:34 PM »

I'm not sure if you can insert a warrior priest in with a unit of Merc pikemen, as in the 6th edition, you could not include heroes into dogs of war, unless they were RoR of course (because they had their own heroes). As for the rules, they are here...

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/dogsofwar/default.htm

there are links to dogs of war ruleset which are available in PDF format.

Clewsy1988 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2007, 05:05:25 PM »

Im prety shore that now the new empire book is out you cant use dogs of war, you can use regiments of the renown though and you cant put empire characters in them but they come with there own character anyway.

PS: If anyone reads this can you tell me weather in right about the no dogs of war thing thanks

lemercenaire · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2007, 05:36:29 PM »

I own a Dogs of War army and I can confirme you that only DoW characters can join DoW units.

Clewsy1988 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2007, 05:39:35 PM »

I thought that was the case but can you still use DoW as a rare choise?

Lord Artemis · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2007, 05:44:34 PM »

i believe dogs of war units count as Rare choices. I'm fairly sure you can use them because the DoW rules are still valid i believe, and they say that you may include them into any army, unless otherwise stated (I.E-bretonnia, undead, lizards, orcs all have special restrictions i think...)

Clewsy1988 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2007, 06:28:04 PM »

Quote

i believe dogs of war units count as Rare choices. I'm fairly sure you can use them because the DoW rules are still valid i believe, and they say that you may include them into any army, unless otherwise stated (I.E-bretonnia, undead, lizards, orcs all have special restrictions i think...)

I hope that is true because I would love to use a unit in my army.

redflag · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2007, 08:39:09 PM »

Yes you can have DOW and yes as of the 7th edition characters can join any friendly units that includes DOW pikemen etc. For anyone who says otherwise I suggest you read the 7th edition rulebook then when you read how the 7th edition explicitly allows characters to join any friendly units you can start to readjust your tactics to include pikemen ( If this sounds rude I am sorry but if people are gonna state that you cannot have pikemen joined by characters then you should have no problem finding something in the 7th edition rulebook to support your claims). Since the 7th edition came out I found pikemen to be the perfect place to deposit my wizards.

lemercenaire · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2007, 10:07:35 PM »

Quote from: redflag on March 17, 2007, 08:39:09 PM

Yes you can have DOW and yes as of the 7th edition characters can join any friendly units that includes DOW pikemen etc. For anyone who says otherwise I suggest you read the 7th edition rulebook then when you read how the 7th edition explicitly allows characters to join any friendly units you can start to readjust your tactics to include pikemen ( If this sounds rude I am sorry but if people are gonna state that you cannot have pikemen joined by characters then you should have no problem finding something in the 7th edition rulebook to support your claims). Since the 7th edition came out I found pikemen to be the perfect place to deposit my wizards.

Well this isn't quite right as the DoW faq state that DoW units can only be joined by DoW characters and if you read rules the way you do you would state that your characters can join any frendly units you like but it's not true ; they can't join unbreakable units unless they are unbreakable themselves and so on...as the rules for DoW haven't been updated I'd don't see why it could be otherwise.

Graf von Carroburg · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2007, 12:23:27 AM »

Not sure about characters joining, but I'm confident that you can still take DoW. It was actually specified by a designer (Gav maybe) that DoW aren't specifically mentioned in the new book because they aren't all rares anymore - various RoR, and potentially other prospective units, are core, special, etc...

I used to run Pikes in the two previous editions from time to time - they suffer a bit from not being able to fight in ranks to the side anymore, and lack of detachments. Ah, but, you say, I can have de facto detachments by sticking small units to either side. But a) these need to be 10+, and b) cause panic.

I like the idea of Pikes, but they're very expensive and fragile, and it's hard to ensure they survive to get their points back. For the same as a Greatsword, I'm just not convinced...

oom · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2007, 12:50:05 AM »

Quote from: lemercenaire on March 17, 2007, 10:07:35 PM

Well this isn't quite right as the DoW faq state that DoW units can only be joined by DoW characters and if you read rules the way you do you would state that your characters can join any frendly units you like but it's not true ; they can't join unbreakable units unless they are unbreakable themselves and so on...as the rules for DoW haven't been updated I'd don't see why it could be otherwise.

I could not find this rule in the pdf's beyond the restriction for joining the cursed company. Can you or anyone please provide a reference or ruling made on the 7th ed ruleset?

FWIW i think GW simply failed to restrict priest hatred to units drawn from the empire AB (you know, units that actually *care* about sigmar). But i dont consider a priest in pike as broken - priests in IC knights are more effective.

redflag · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2007, 01:29:11 AM »

Page 72 of the 7th edition rule book is crystal clear on this subject. A character can join any friendly unit during the course of a battle. I have posted on this subject before you can search my posts. You want to disagree with me fine but prove me wrong

read page 72 of the rule book then feel free to find even the thinest scrap of information in the 7th edition rule book that says otherwise

. Then post it for all to read (just make sure to include the page number).

Trust me people who have disagreed with me on this subject have yet to find anything in the 7th edition rule book that says otherwise. By the way its ANY CHARACTER which can join ANY FRIENDLY UNIT( with certain exceptions which are listed in the 7th edition book) during the course of a battle. There is nothing in the DOW army book that says anything about DOW pike men not being able to be joined by other army book characters. In other words during a mega battle your Dwarf thane ally during the course of the battle can join your empire swordsmen or he could join your empire DOW pike men.

Clewsy1988 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2007, 03:13:36 AM »

The rare choices of the 7th edition empire army book does not state that you can use DoW units!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Unless stated otherwise this is the end of this particular discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bear in mind that the army book adjustments to any rules over ride any rules in the rule book (See official GW FAQ.)

Robert Klemic · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2007, 03:39:42 AM »

Clewsy, it was stated in an earlier thread that Gav stated that DoW are still legal for 7e Empire and 7e O+G to take and that you go by the DoW information on the GW website for which slots different DoW units take. For example, regular DoW pikemen still take a rare slot while all of the DoW Pikemen Regiments of Renown all take special slots.

Pistol Pete · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2007, 04:28:03 AM »

GW did not intend for DoW units to be made unusable by the new armies, but simply wanted to simplify the rather confusing differences between DoW units (always a rare choice) and Regiments of Renown (can be core, special, or rare, depending on the army).

You can still officially use Dogs of War though, as the rules for DoW and RoR allow them to be used with any army except Brettonia (with restrictions based on the individual armies). Empire can officially use *any* Dogs of War unit, and almost all of the Regiments of Renown.

Dogs of War have also been removed from the rulebooks to simplify things for tournament play in GW sanctioned tourneys. However non GW tourneys may have thier own rulesets about DoW units regardless of of GWs stance.

Clewsy1988 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2007, 04:54:29 AM »

To be fare witch rules are you using 6th or 7th edition, the DoW rules are still in the 6th edition.
I think as we are going by the 7th edition they are not valid, to me the people who still use them are just trying to hold on to the sweet 6th edition rules (people need to get used to not using them.) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oom · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2007, 05:36:37 AM »

a) Stop using so many !s
b) 7th ed rules are backwards compatible with units published for 6th.
c) DoW pdf's are still downloadable supporting their validity under the current ruleset.

Clewsy1988 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2007, 05:41:04 AM »

Quote

a) Stop using so many !s
b) 7th ed rules are backwards compatible with units published for 6th.
c) DoW pdf's are still downloadable supporting their validity under the current ruleset.

Only because they havent been updated. I've spoken to GW oxford and they agree that this is a loop hole, but by the time all of the new books come out this will stop.

lemercenaire · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2007, 06:50:06 AM »

Quote from: redflag on March 18, 2007, 01:29:11 AM

Page 72 of the 7th edition rule book is crystal clear on this subject. A character can join any friendly unit during the course of a battle. I have posted on this subject before you can search my posts. You want to disagree with me fine but prove me wrong read page 72 of the rule book then feel free to find even the thinest scrap of information in the 7th edition rule book that says otherwise . Then post it for all to read (just make sure to include the page number).

I've made some research and as the 6th ed. faq as gone to heaven so the DoW faq does...and GW doesn't publish a DoW faq anymore on their online FAQs so I must agree with you then.

It seem for now you can join your characters with DoW units ,sorry I was wrong ,and a good thanks to GW to be so specific on the matter.

This could lead to some awful combos but as I have lots of DoW I'm quite please with this

tixed · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2007, 08:10:17 AM »

Wow... Quite a discussion! =) So I can use that kind of combo.
But which models do I use? Can I just save lots of time & money and make my Spermen's spears just longer (by cutting and inserting) and call them 'converted to pikemen'?

Guvnor · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2007, 09:47:56 AM »

Quote from: Clewsy1988 on March 18, 2007, 04:54:29 AM

To be fare witch rules are you using 6th or 7th edition, the DoW rules are still in the 6th edition.
I think as we are going by the 7th edition they are not valid, to me the people who still use them are just trying to hold on to the sweet 6th edition rules (people need to get used to not using them.) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Check this thread for some GW plans about DoW. http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=13001.0

Therefore by your logic VC, TK, Dwarves, OK, HE, DE, Chaos etc are all illegal. This is going to make winning a bit easier. I'll only have to play empire and O&G in tourneys.

queek · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2007, 01:32:57 PM »

redflag, we've been through this before. Pg 72 is general language, and does not invalidate specific language in other books or in FAQs.

no joining DoW units.

as has been addressed eleventy dozen times before, the DoW rules still allow armies to take them, even though the reference has been removed from the newer books.

lemercenaire · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2007, 05:35:13 PM »

Quote from: queek on March 18, 2007, 01:32:57 PM

redflag, we've been through this before. Pg 72 is general language, and does not invalidate specific language in other books or in FAQs.

no joining DoW units.

as has been addressed eleventy dozen times before, the DoW rules still allow armies to take them, even though the reference has been removed from the newer books.

That's what I thought too as it was in the previous faq but proofs are no more

...so for the moment we have to wait another faq or interview from a GW rules maker that say so.

I'm going to stick with the no char. with DoW units as it was, to be fair and avoid such discution with my opponents

Does someone have contacts with Gav or someone like that

This would be settled.

redflag · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2007, 07:17:50 PM »

Queek,

What was the author's intent when writing the 7th edition rule book is clear its not general. Maybe they thought otherwise but then they should have written it so. The fact of the matter is unless GW is unable to write in the English language (which I assume is not the case) any person (who knows nothing about the 6th edition) who reads this rulebook will not agree that this subject is vague or in general terms or what ever.
Maybe GW did not intend this but the fact of the matter is what they wrote down on paper is what they wrote down on paper. Its not like this is an Empire loophole, this rule applies to ALL armies in Warhammer. An excellent way to read the 7th edition rule book is to pretend you know nothing about the previous editions or at least imagine what someone who knows nothing about previous editions.
If they actually intended to prohibit characters joining DOW armies like in the 6th edition shame on them for being unable to express this on paper in the 7th edition rulebook especially since what they wrote down is explicitly the opposite.

Lord Artemis · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2007, 10:00:38 PM »

If the rule book states this, than i would believe it and i'm wrong. Its still sort of hard for me to believe fluff wise however.

I mean a grizzled hardened unit of mercenary pikemen would probably not let themselves be lead by an empire hero or warrior priest. They fight together as a unit, like brothers. Having a foreign influence introduced into the unit at the beginning of a battle probably would not be accepted very well. I always assumed the unit champion would probably be the commander and leader of the merc band and trusted by his men to get them hired and to fight.

Though they are men still, so i suppose a rousing speech could pick them up and make them fight better...

But as the rule states, it allows for some nice combos. Just my 2 cents.

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Author Topic: Pikemen! (Read 27579 times)