Topic: The army of justice, my try on a 2000 points list for a tourny

[Ashford]

Hi,

As the response on my previous list, posted here (http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=14967.0) was somewhat limited, I had to rethink the list myself. This is the result, and I hope your will help me out with some valuable comments, the knowledge you all have of empire and tactics is impressing. So, here we go:

Characters:
Graf Heinrich Winkelhausen, Laienrichter von Nuln, (Archlector on waralter)..........................max 330 points total (not quite sure how to equip him...)
Ankläger Gerhard Zornig (Warrior priest) Icon of magnus, AoMI, great weapon............................144 points
Oberstleutnant Friedrich Stahlhelm (BSB), carrying the personal banner of Graf Winkelhausen........150 points (any ideas how to equip would be helpfull..)
Characters total... 624 points

Core:
1st battalion - "The Iron Cross regiment"
23 swordsmen, FC....................................................................................163 points
9 halberds................................................................................................ 45 points
5 handgunners/x-bows............................................................................... 40 points
1st battalion cost.......................................................................................248 points

2nd battalion - "52 Nuln infantry regiment"
24 swordsmen, FC....................................................................................169 points
9 halberds................................................................................................ 45 points
5 handgunners/x-bows............................................................................... 40 points
2nd battalion cost......................................................................................254 points

5 Knights of Justice (nilla knights).................................................................115 points
5 Knights of Justice (nilla knights).................................................................115 points

Special:
3rd battalion
"Die Garde der Laienrichter"
17 Greatswords FC.....................................................................................170 points
8 Swordsmen............................................................................................  48 points

5 Outriders................................................................................................105 points
Cannon...100 points
Cannon...100 points

Rare:
5 DOW fast cav w/spear.............................................................................. 60 points
5 DOW fast cav w/spear.............................................................................. 60 points
(eventually one hellstorm battery, 115 points instead of both.)

Army cost total..........................................................................................1999 points

The army is based around the high judge of Nuln, Graf Winkelhausen, and the forces attached to him in his work of upholding law and order in Nuln and the nearby territories. As high judge he is appointed a personal guard of Greatswords and the Iron Cross regiment represents the soldiers appointed to the judges office. For this particular mission he is also given command over the 52nd Nuln infantry regiment to provide some backup for the forces of justice.

The tactic is to use this army in a hybrid TVI-way. While advancing the fast cav helps me rederecting the enemy into my main blocks which I screen with my missile troops. Hopefully he will be forced to charge the forward detachment, making an overrun into my main infantry blocks so that my archlector and the knights can charge him in my turn. All this while my outriders and the cannons provide covering fire.

So, what do you think. Thoughts and ideas on everything, army list, fluff and tactic would be most appreciated

Ashford

[Fierce]

Looks like a solid list. Here are few things you might want to consider:

1) Missile detachments. Looks like your deployment zone is going to be crowded. Consider combining both these to independent unit and using on one flank or instead using archers. Greatswords at least could use archer screen.

2) Bsb's equipment. I'd go with barded war horse, full plate and possibly some magic standard. With stubborn banner in swordsmen you would have two ld8 stubborn units within bsb's range. Griffon standard is also a solid choice.

3) Greatswords. I suppose your warrior priest is joining them? His equipment is excellent for this purpose and you might want to deploy them 6-wide to get maximum effect from his hatred. Don't expect too much though, as they are likely to be charged with a strong unit, capable of killing the whole front rank. Be also aware that due to hatred you must always pursue. So be cautious with eagles and scouts who might suicide charge you from behind.

4) AL's equipment. You should think how you are going to use him. I use mine as a character hunter with ha, sh, vhs and mace of Helsturm and try to be where opponent's expensive characters are. Also this setup is great against wounded monsters. If you are looking more of a supportive character, consider going cheap with perhaps some common magic weapon only, though I have no experience with this.

5) Command options. I never take champions on infantry units unless a character is going to join them. You might want to consider dropping a champion from one block and adding a regular trooper. Musicians are worth gold for knights, if only you can squeeze points for them, go for it. Also outriders could use one, making it more convenient to flee with them if situation requires it.

6) Dow light cavalry. I think these will be better for your infantry based army than rocket battery! In later turns it might be very difficult to find safe targets as your infantry has came closer with enemy.

[Graf von Carroburg]

I love the theme (and your German's decent too..) but I am curious as to what the DOW Cavalry represent?

Also, have you thought about making the knights Templars of Shallaya (I think that's the goddess of justice, too tired at this hour to check)...

[Ashford]

I think of the DOW fast cav as deputies, keeping watch in the more rural areas, acting as the judges eyes and ears, so to speak. Maybe not the best idea, but the truth is that I really love the tactical flexibility of fast cav, and I really wanted them in my army.

I think there are different gods of justice and law in the warhammer univers. I was thinking about templars of Verena, she is also a goddess of justice, and as far as I know there are a grand temple of Verena in Nuln. Furthermore she is the goddess of learning, and therefor probably the god of Graf Winkelhausens best friend and closest legal advicer (which I sadly could not find room for in my 2000 points army) Prof.Dr.jur.Karl Sorgenfrei at the University of Nuln (in game terms a lvl 2 wizard) (I do got to post the whole fluff sometime, but writing it all in english is some work. Maybe some highlights will do...)

Btw.. I saw you making some referenses to your time in court in a different post.... Do you have any interest in the profession of law yourself??

[Eisenherz]

Seems very well thought through to me. I'd second Fierce's opinion to change the GS detachment to archers. Personally, I'd only keep one ligh cav along with the outriders and increase both units to 6, but that's only a matter of taste.

The names "Stahlhelm" and "Iron Cross" have a slight Nazi touch to them, don't you think? I know it's not intended, and I also know I'm a bit too sensitive about these things, so no offence - I just wanted to point it out.

[Ashford]

The names "Stahlhelm" and "Iron Cross" have a slight Nazi touch to them, don't you think? I know it's not intended, and I also know I'm a bit too sensitive about these things, so no offence - I just wanted to point it out.

I have not been thinking about this, but when I read your post I do see your point. The Nazi touch was not at all intended, "Stahlhelm" is only used because it is a german word, and does at the same time sound like a german name. "Iron Cross" well, it was the cross at the swordmens shields that inspired me. As far as I know the empire uses this cross a lot, and it has old german traditions. However, there are no problems changing their names, so if people do feel offended, I will do this at once. And, once again, I am deeply sorry if someone have misunderstood me...

Well, so much about the names. The other thing I wanted to discuss with you was some changes I have done to my list this weekend. Based on your advices, some advices from friends and some thinking and testing, I have made some changes that I want you to comment. The new list is as follows:

Characters:
Graf Heinrich Winkelhausen, Laienrichter von Nuln, (Archlector on waralter).......................... 301 points total
(Sword of might, shield of Gorgon, Van Horstmans, Heavy armour)
Ankläger Gerhard Zornig (Warrior priest) Icon of magnus, AoMI, great weapon............................144 points
Oberstleutnant Friedrich Stahlhelm (BSB), carrying the personal banner of Graf Winkelhausen........152 points
(Full plate, Warhorse, barding, griffon banner)
Characters total... 596 points

Core:
1st battalion - "The Iron Cross regiment"
23 swordsmen, FC....................................................................................163 points
9 halberds................................................................................................ 45 points
5 handgunners.......................................................................................... 40 points
1st battalion cost.......................................................................................248 points

2nd battalion - "52 Nuln infantry regiment"
25 swordsmen, FC....................................................................................175 points
9 halberds................................................................................................ 45 points
2nd battalion cost......................................................................................220 points

5 Knights of Justice (nilla knights).................................................................115 points
5 Knights of Justice (nilla knights).................................................................115 points

Special:
3rd battalion - "Die Garde der Laienrichter"
17 Greatswords FC.....................................................................................170 points
8 Swordsmen............................................................................................  48 points
6 Handgunners..........................................................................................  48 points

5 Pistoliers, Outrider w/repeater pistol...........................................................107 points

Cannon...100 points
Cannon...100 points

Rare:
5 DOW fast cav w/spear.............................................................................. 60 points
5 DOW fast cav w/spear.............................................................................. 60 points
(eventually one hellstorm battery, 115 points instead of both.)

Army cost total..........................................................................................1996 points

So, the changes is basically: The Archlector is made a bit cheaper and I have descided on the Griffon banner for the BSB. The reason for the first change is that the AL plays mainly a supporting role, and 300 points in one character is still quite a lot. The reason for the Griffon banner is that like in the TVI-tactica, the infantry shall do the most of the killing, and the rest of the list is just distractions and elements providing supporting charges, redirect, "crossfire" and those elements. I therefor need to be pretty sure one of my blocks will break the enemy.

Furthermore I have given the shooty detachment to the GS instead of the 52nd Nulns. This is mainly based on your advices, combined with the fact that I want a fighting detachment in that battalion too. However, do you think the GS will do with only a shooty detachment screening them? If so, I like the idea of some more shoothing. Then it comes to the archer, handgunners x-bow discussion. I really like the handgunners ability to do some damage when they stand and shoot, and as my army probably is most suited to march against the enemy, even archers will not be able to shoot that much. They do, however do the screening-thing a lot better, so it is a close call...

The Outriders have lost to the pistoliers in this list. As the Outriders mainly plays a static role, I think the pistoliers are more suited to play a role in a offensive, dynamic list like this. Furthermore this gives me 3 real fast cav options and combined with 2 units of nilla knights, I have great tools available when it comes to redirecting, marchblocking and such. So, mainly I think the pistoliers would fit my army better. Still, I would really like a Hochland somewhere in this army, but I do not find the points for it without removing one cannon.

So, this is where I am now, people, please give me your opinions

Ashford

PS! I am dooing some progress with my painting too. Gerhard Zornig is finally finished, and I have started painting the 5 first knights of justice. I`ll keep you up to date

[Ashford]

Well... anyone?? please 

Ashford

[wissenlander]

I think that it's a good list.  Not much needs to be changed, although you may want to take away a DoW unit to beef up your other units like Eisenherz stated early.  I'd also maybe try and bump that 1st swords regiment to 25 so you have 5 full ranks.  Beyond that, it's solid, in my humble opinion.

[Graf von Carroburg]

The names "Stahlhelm" and "Iron Cross" have a slight Nazi touch to them, don't you think? I know it's not intended, and I also know I'm a bit too sensitive about these things, so no offence - I just wanted to point it out.

Virtually every symbol and name from German military history was appropriated by the Nazis at one stage or another. Some are very obscure, an SS Division was named Georg von Frundsburg after the Landsknecht general.

I myself have a Reiksguard squadron called "Toetenkopf", but named for the Brunswickers, not the SS Division (and on account of their skull and wreath helmet crests...)