Topic: Prayers and "remains in play"

[Matthew Taylor]

Hello again,

Could someone please let me know if the following interpretation of the rules is correct?

The BRB says that a remains in play spell does exactly that until Dispelled, the wizard chooses to end the spell or he attempts to cast another spell (and possibly if he dies?).

So is the same true of a warrior Priests prayers? Which would mean for example that for teh Arch lector to be able to use his 2 prayers a turn the first one would have to be Healing Hand or Soulfire and the second could be a remains in play one (say Hammer of Sigmar). If this wasn't dispelled then the following turn if he cast any spell it would automatically end the (Hammer of Sigmar).

How would the Spell from the War Altar affect this - as the rules say this allows the Arch lector to cast 1 spell from the lore of light: would this automatically end any Remains in play spells he had already cast?

Thanks,

Matthew

[Rikus]

Hi,

I will have to check the wording, but IMO that spell comes from the war altar. I will have to read the text to be sure. Although casting choice & order would then have to be carefully considered if it is part of the spells cast by the AL.

[Matthew Taylor]

The exact wording is:

"Once per empire magic phase, the griffon allows the Arch Lector to cast any one spell from the Lore of Light (BRB page reference), which is cast at power level 5, exactly like a bound spell."

So I'd say its the Arch Lector doing the casting.

Matthew

[mlepkows]

The BRB says that a remains in play spell does exactly that until Dispelled, the wizard chooses to end the spell or he attempts to cast another spell (and possibly if he dies?).

So is the same true of a warrior Priests prayers?

Yes. Those prayers are normal bound spells and so use normal rules for casting, except for the "roll the power dice" part.

Maciek

[Skyros]

As warrior priests aren't wizards, I don't think the normal rules for 'remains in play' spells breaking should apply to them.

I mean, basically *all* their spells are remains in play bound prayers, that provide a small lasting benefit to someone on their side, which is great thematically.

Having an archlector who can cast two RiP spells in the same turn is useless unless he can have two RiP spells up at the same time.

[nico]

I disagree.
You can cast two prayers, one with direct effects( soulfire or healing hand) and then a RIP one.
OR
You can cast an important RIP prayer (unbreakable comes to mind), see it dispelled, and cast it again, since the first attempt was not successful. That will draw even more dispell dice or make your unit unbreakable for good.

Either way I wouldn't call it useless.

[Dendo Star]

One question is all I have.

In the NEB, does it still state "Warrior Priests are not ever considered Wizards" ?

[Mark Wiethorn]

Not casting 2 RIP prayers a turn takes some steam out of the Arch Lector.  The rumor was that it could be 2 RIP prayers but I see nothing that supports that. 

[Melvin the Melvin]

Not casting 2 RIP prayers a turn takes some steam out of the Arch Lector.  The rumor was that it could be 2 RIP prayers but I see nothing that supports that. 

He can't successfully cast two RiP spells. There's a notable difference.

[Dendo Star]

Here's the looky-loo.

1.  The rules for RiP Spells state they are talking about "Wizards" and only "Wizards".  It also has a little paragraph at the end that says "these RiP restirctions can change" .

2.  In the present EB it stated, specifically, that our Priests are NOT EVER Wizards.  And these are not spells in question, they are prayers which just happen to cast like bound spells.

3.  If the NEB says the same thing about Priests, and it will God willing, we're golden.  We can cast prayers and have those Ward Saves an' such on all the time, unless the opponent dispels it or something.

*.  The Bound Spell rules/restrictions in the rule book pertain ONLY to items, it says so itself.  If those rules were for any/all Bound spells, our Priests could not exist.

[Traumaron]

He should be able to cast two RIP prayers (say the unbreakable one) on himself and the reroll one on another model.  It does say he can cast two prayers per turn, but doesnt specify RIP vs. non RIP that I know of.

If it is true that he cant cast tow RIP prayers in one turn then you would need to cast the non RIP prayer first then the RIP one. Or like another poster said cast the same one twice if the first was dispelled.    I would need to check in the NEB to see if it specificies two seperate prayers.

Another thought.  Since bound spells automatically succeed (unless dispelled), is it really "casting" or is it using the item that contains the bound spell?  Its splitting hairs but so is saying that the AL cant cast two RIP spells  

[Dendo Star]

He's not "casting" anything.  He's not a Wizard, and these aren't spells. 

Does the NEB say the "not Wizards" thing, same as the old?

[Traumaron]

Drat I forgot to bring my NEB to work again!  Where is Brice when you need him...

[Dendo Star]

If we have that one single passage, we good.

Ogres have Gut Magic special rules.  Tzeetch, High Elves, Dwarfs and Greenskins to.

NOW IT'S OUR TURN!   

God willing...

[jlutin]

It does say specifically (or it used to) that WP's are not wizards.

With some creative cheese cutting we might get WP's that can cast multiple RIP spells and not cancel the old ones.   

[Dendo Star]

Jeez, I mean we could have done this in the last edition as well.

Frankly, there was never a reason to have a WP in the last edition anyway.  I can see why this didn't come up.

[EmpireSoldier]

Frankly, there was never a reason to have a WP in the last edition anyway.  I can see why this didn't come up.

Mount in a unit of pistolers to charge the flank of an undead or chaos unit for 2x S4 AP shots that reroll failed hits/wounds per model...

[Dendo Star]

Wow.

 

[Traumaron]

Not to mention putting the re-roll wound prayer on the champion who has a pistol and repeater pistol. 4 shots with re-roll to hit and to wound.

[Mike Chung]

It does say specifically (or it used to) that WP's are not wizards.

With some creative cheese cutting we might get WP's that can cast multiple RIP spells and not cancel the old ones.   

This is clearly against the spirit and intent of the rules.

Warhammer Basic Rule Book pg. 110

"Some spells...clearly marked as 'remains in play'...lasts until the Wizard chooses to end it, attempts to cast another spell."

Clearly these are the rules that pertain to spells tagged with 'remains in play'.  All prayers that last multiple turns are clearly marked as Remains in Play.

While pg. 110 provides the provisio that the RIP spells may contain exceptions, it also says any exceptions will be specified in the spell's description or other special rules.

Nothing on pg. 52 or 53 of the NEB contains anything resembling such exceptions.  In fact, the book specifies on pg. 53 that "Prayers are cast exactly like bound spells". 

Going back to the basic rule book and the section on bound spells, it clearly states "The spell...is cast in the players magic phase just like other spells (for example, it cannot be cast by fleeing models) and it can be countered in the same way as ordinary spells".

Clearly the intent here is that bound spells operate exactly like normal spells with the exception that you don't roll power dice and the dispel score is set at the power level.

Also, you may NOT have an Archlector recast an RIP prayer on his second prayer if your opponent dispelled it on the first go.  You MUST cast a different prayer if you want to pray again.  The relevant passage is as follows "An ArchLector may use two different prayers per turn..."

The word use is different than the words successfully cast, or not dispelled.  You use a prayer and your opponent is given his chance to dispell it.  Regardless of whether he succeeds or even attempts to dispel the prayer, you have already used it up and must wait until your next magic phase before trying again.

[Skyros]

This is clearly against the spirit and intent of the rules.

Warhammer Basic Rule Book pg. 110

"Some spells...clearly marked as 'remains in play'...lasts until the Wizard chooses to end it, attempts to cast another spell."

Clearly these are the rules that pertain to spells tagged with 'remains in play'.  All prayers that last multiple turns are clearly marked as Remains in Play.

Except, that priests are not wizards.

I don't particularly care to try to delve into the inconsistencies and such in the rules, the way it *should* work is that the warrior priests can maintain one 'remains in play' spell that doesn't get cancelled unless he uses another 'remains in play' spell.

Also, you may NOT have an Archlector recast an RIP prayer on his second prayer if your opponent dispelled it on the first go.  You MUST cast a different prayer if you want to pray again.  The relevant passage is as follows "An ArchLector may use two different prayers per turn..."

The word use is different than the words successfully cast, or not dispelled.  You use a prayer and your opponent is given his chance to dispell it.  Regardless of whether he succeeds or even attempts to dispel the prayer, you have already used it up and must wait until your next magic phase before trying again.

That would make the AL even worse What's the point in having two spell casts if the second will dismiss the first, and you can't recast a failed attempt? Hmmmm?

My point is, the wizards 'remains in play' mechanic doesn't work well when applied to the arch lectors, as all their stuff is essentially remains in play (and should be). 

[Pistol Pete]

The way I play it is that the RiP prayers will dispell one another, but that the war altar's spell does not since it is a bound spell from a peice of equipment.  If the war altar's spell's invalidated the prayers, or vice versa it would make the arch lector on the war altar quite useless.

[Dain of the Border Legion]

My thoughts would be that an AL should be able to retain 2 different RIP prayers at the same time, much in the same way that Ar Ulric from SoC could. Now its simply a case of deciding if 1/ the AL has been toned down in power and no longer has this ability or 2/ if this ability was still meant to work, hence 2 prayers a turn, but they left the wording explaining this out of the Empire book.

As it stands at the moment, reading it as written, the AL cannot have 2 RIP spells in play at the same time. Mike Chung is also correct in that you may only attempt to use a spell/prayer like ability once per turn, irrespective of whether it is cast successfully or not the 1st time. Unfortunately, the War Altar appears to give the AL the power to cast the spell as well, so that is also a point to consider. Basically, as it is written at the moment, you have to plan extremely carefully what you are doing with your AL on War Altar each magic phase.

Dain

[garbod]

To my mind it is simple (though it took me awhile to come to the conclusion). In WHFB there is only one defination/game mechaninc of 'remains in play' and that is given on pg 110 of the rule book. If we don't use this defination/game mechanic what else can we use? I agree it dosen't work well (as the two questions below show) but I don't think we have anything else to use!

The reading around this has got me asking two other questions though. Firstly Would a bound spell from an item also end a remains in play spell? This is especially important when you consider that the war alter golden griffon rule (the lore of light bound spell) actually allows the AL to cast the spell. My personal view is that it wouldn't as the idea of the bound spell is that all the power is contained within the item and use of it is so simple a non-wizard can unlesh it. Therefore it's use is not something so complex, like a spell, that means the caster needs to use all his concentration to complete the task. This however is a fluff answer and so not very strong. Can anyone else find a rule answer?

The first question got me thinking why have I never come across this before and so remainded me of another caveat in the Bound Spell rules - "A charecter can never have more than one bound spell"! All of a sudden I had to go and reread the Empire book to make sure the AL has 2 spells! BUt he does and as we know that the armybooks outrule the rule book not a huge problem. But can we give our AL/WP a bound spell item? To my mind we can because the AL can spefically have the WA which gives him a bound spell. Also the rule for bound spells is in the magic item rules and therefore seems to be saying you can't have more than one magic item with a bound spell. But that in turn leads to the question can an AL on WA be given a further bound spell item? To this I have to say no. He has an item that gives him a bound spell and he is only allowed one. However I could understand an argument that said that the WA is not strictly speaking a magic item and so is not included in the count. However I think that argument is stretching the rules to far. Does anyone else have some views?

[Patch]

When the AL first appeared, I checked with GW and they said that he could cast two RiP spells in a turn. In a following turn, if he used any other prayer, the RiPs were automatically dispelled (but could be recast that turn).

In the NEB, I just don't know - but the Bound Spell from an item shouldn't count towards the character's casting, to my mind. I've had opponents have their wizards use RiP spells, then use bound items with no ill effect - I guess it'll be either down to House Rules, or failing that, another call to GW.